Two is better than one: Insights on the Brink & The Consumer Insights Revolution

Ryan Barry: Hi everybody and welcome to this episode of Inside Insights, a podcast powered by Zappi. My name is Ryan and I am joined today by Brett Townsend, SVP of strategy at Questor and an OG friend of mine. Brett I'm psyched to have this conversation with you today, my man.

Brett Townsend: Yeah, me too. It's good to be out with you, Ryan. 

Ryan: We're gonna talk about two books today. One is called Insights On The Brink, and the other one is called the Consumer Insights Revolution. Brett co authored Insights On The Brink with Tim Hoskins, who's the president at Quester.

Ryan: And I co authored the Consumer Insights Revolution with my partner in crime, Steve Phillips. And we came up with this idea together in New York City a few weeks ago of wouldn't it be really cool to contrast the two books? Before we get into the contrasting of the two books, but a long time since this industry has had a book written about it, let alone two at once.

Ryan: So we're pumped to share this with you, but I had to tell everybody a story. We had about 10 hours of zoom calls about six years ago because we wanted to write a book together. And not many people will ever know that we had an outline. We had a bunch of engaging things and then we got busy, man. So I was pumped to see you wrote yours.

Brett: Yeah. And likewise. And I think yours ended up, I think being more impactful because You used it was almost like a case study in an entire book that really talked about how you do this from beginning to end. So it's interesting that while we didn't get to write together, which we still ought to do one day, by the way, we should do that.

Brett: You know, the fact that we ended up getting two books instead of just one, I think is going to be much far more beneficial for the industry had you and I just done the one. 

Ryan: I think so too. There's, they're really complimentary reads, but before we dive in, what was it like for you to bring this story to life?

Ryan: And I guess take everybody through the process of writing a book, because it's a, We can both reciprocate, but I think it's an interesting process to go through. Uh, and take us through your journey. 

Brett: Yeah, mine was really simple. I mean, it was based on a keynote address I gave in 2019 and an insights conference and had a lot of encouragement to really expand on what I had been talking about and turn it into something which became this, but really it was, you It wasn't until I got away from corporate America where I actually had time to think and to process and to write because I just, I was so busy for so long.

Brett: And just the last thing I felt like doing was writing a book. But the process was great because it really forced me to think about what am I really trying to say? What do I really feel like the industry needs to hear? Because like you said, not only, because most of the books that I had researched, weren't about the industry as a whole, but they were about an element of the industry or a methodology or a technique or a certain sliver of the industry, like behavioral science, for instance, like our friend Will Leach wrote an amazing book about behavioral science.

Brett: But it was, you know, about behavioral science from what we had seen, nobody had really written a book about the industry as a whole. And then to your point, now there's two of us that have done that. And I don't think that we could have enough talk about it because there's so much that needs to be done, so much change of mindset.

Brett: And we both talk about this in each of the books, but it was just very compelling. To do this kind of research and dive in and just have that mindset about what conversations that we feel like need to be happening in our industry. How can we change things? How can we be a catalyst and how can we just put forth some ideas that then people can start to discuss and we'll see where it goes from there.

Ryan: Yeah, I love it. But I guess the vision and the inspiration and the time away from corporate America gives you the time to do it. What were like, what were the parts of the process that you found either most challenging or, or most exciting as you were actually bringing this to life?

Ryan: And you can answer both in terms of the creation and then the promotion side, because it is two tentpole moments. Um, at least from my experience. 

Brett: Yeah, I think that the challenging parts were the editing, like, what do we cut? What do we do? You know, like one of the chapters, especially on emotion, the chapter that's on human emotion, it looks very different from the first chapter we wrote on it.

Brett: And so, yeah, once we got into the room and just started going through, paragraph by paragraph, page by page, Tim and I looked at each other, we're like, we need to change the tone of this whole chapter. And so we basically just hammered it out. I rewrote it. And we got there. And so it's just the editing.

Brett: What do we take out? What do we put in? What do we change? So that was, and then of course the promotion of it. It's a book about the whole industry. These are still niche books, and so how do we get it out to the people who we feel need the information and need to hear it?

Brett: Because both of us, I feel like have a lot of what we're talking about that are Aim towards senior executives. So like, how do we target them? How do we get them to start to see what we're seeing about changes that need to happen? And whether it's an evolution or a revolution or whatever. How do we bring that about and how do we get that going?

Brett: But the fun part about it was I loved the writing. I loved the research. I loved really digging in and forming the ideas together. And, I enjoyed it. I mean, so much so I've already got. Two more projects. I think I'm ready to get rolling. 

Ryan: Really? Yeah. I love that. 

Brett: Yeah. That's really, I think that's the big point is if it's all just about the destination, about just seeing the book on the shelf, then you don't enjoy the process. And it's not that fun. And you're only like, okay, then it's just more ego because you want to see your book on a shelf somewhere. This was true, and I got the feeling from your book too.

Brett: This is really about how do we help? How do we get conversations started? How do we Provide a roadmap to improvement because for so long our industry, we provide roadmaps on methodologies all the time, but we don't, we don't talk about roadmaps on how we make this industry better. 

Ryan: Yeah. Or we say things are broken, but we don't tell people how to get there.

Ryan: And I think that's, that's one of, that was one of the things for me. So I'll share some of my reflections. I think I break it up like the creation of the book and then the production of the book as two different moments, but different, different emotional rides.

Ryan: Like I think we had gone on a journey, we had done it with a bunch of customers. And what we wanted to do was not make it a thinly veiled Zappi thing. We wanted to make sure that it was tangible. And I don't know about you, but I've read so many business books and so many of them, Are good for about 100 pages and then they fill it with shit to get it to 400 pages 500.

Ryan: So we wanted something that was tangible and bite size. But of course, you had a co author. We had three and converging everybody's authentic tone, their unique superpowers. That's a challenge in and of itself. And I actually had a similar moment to you. I remember when we got the first draft, all of us got on a call and we're like, we hate it.

Ryan: It sucks. I'm not exaggerating. I think Stefan's exact words are that it's boring. And I don't know that I would want to read this. And so we ended up rewriting the entire first draft. And I was glad because it gave me this, it gave me the excitement that led to the project. And to your point, like there's never a good time to do this.

Ryan: But then once you get to the structure of the outline, I found the hardest part of the writing to be reviewing each chapter, each page for the substance.

Ryan: Does this deliver the points we're trying to make? And then the micro authenticity, would we actually say that this is actually reflective of what we think? And, I thought what was cool about what was cool about reading insights on the brink for me was I could hear you saying it. I could really hear your voice come through and.

Ryan: Authenticity is really important. 

Brett: Well, and it was, and likewise it's, I think it's because we know each other, that we know each other's personalities and we know each other's tone and stuff.

Brett: And and I was, I felt the same way with you and there were sections in that book where I'm like, yeah, I'm hearing Ryan's voice in my head saying all of this. And I think our goals were the same as we, when we set it out, when we set out to do this, the goals were, we want it to be easy to read, conversational, and If it's less than 250 pages, fine.

Brett: We don't need to fill it. Let's just say what we want to say, get to the point, and then move on. Number two is we didn't want it to be philosophical. We wanted it to be practical. Because we, I mean, we both have read business books, I'm sure. That is, it's just all philosophy. And it's like, what do you go and do with this?

Brett: It's like, yeah, it's interesting. What do I do now? And because we wanted anyone, no matter what their level was for experience in this industry, to be able to read this, read our book, at least. And I'll say the same thing about Consumer Insights Revolution is that you can be at any level and read either of these books.

Brett: And you will come away with something that you can do in your job better today. And not just maybe one day when I get to be a VP or a senior director or something, or maybe when I get more experience, I could do this. No, there are things you can implement immediately to start to make not only your job better, your company better, but to start to make the industry better.

Brett: Because I think a theme, one of the themes of both of our books is, this has got to be a collective effort because if it's just happening in silos at individual companies or only at some agencies or only with some insights professionals, we're never going to get the kind of change that we need in order to advance this industry to where it needs to be and where it should be.

Ryan: Yeah, that's right. And I mean, I think the vision that you painted is right. And if you want to get to the North pole, you got to take steps there every day. And so I think like little things you do each and every day get you to your destination, but you gotta start and you said something a few minutes ago that I wanted to comment on, it's about everybody in the business knowing their customer and everybody in the business being consumer centric and I'm getting sick and tired of reading CEOs earning reports talk about consumer centricity, right?

Ryan: And then hearing their VP of insights say, I can't get anything done because everything's political and nothing's going to happen. And so I, I think our books need to make their way market to the CLOs and CFOs and CEOs of the world, because I'm clearer now than ever that If you want to be customer centric, it actually starts at the top and the customer, it needs to be at the center of everything.

Ryan: And I think both of our books offer that playbook. And so what we're going to do folks is we're going to, we're going to do a book review of each of our books. The other author is going to do it to each other. And I want to introduce this concept by just calling out two mutual friends of ours.

Ryan: So I want to start with Jerry Thomas who I think is one of the legends in this industry. He's the CEO and founder of Decision Analyst, and I didn't realize your connection with Jerry and the other person I'm going to talk about until about six months ago.

Ryan: And that person is Karen Kraft, who runs Insights at Johnsonville. And she's one of my favorite people I've ever met. And you guys were on the same team. So comments about being on a team with Karen all those years ago. And I guess let's give everybody Karen's book review of the two books. Cause I think she'd linked them in a really intelligent way.

Brett: She did. Yeah. Because we both know Karen and are friends with her we both asked her to read our book before it got published. And when we saw her at the corporate researchers conference, just recently, she came up and she was talking to both of us and she's like. These two books should be like, volume one and two on everybody's shelf and she even had more of a direct way She's like, okay.

Brett: So the Zappi book she said it's a very practical guide for clearing your plate of all the crap so you can be more strategic and 

Ryan: yeah 

Brett: That's how that's the basis of the Zappi book and then our book Insights on the Brink is about why we need to step up and why we need to be more strategic.

Brett: So what she said was, she said, if she's going to run, she recommends reading them both, she recommended reading Insights on the Brink first, because it's to understand why we need to change. And then Consumer Insights Revolution second, because it provides steps and the practical steps to take to get to where we're going. But I think what's really interesting is that we both talk about mind shifts, changes that have to happen. And we use the word evolution. You use revolution. I don't, I think it's just wordsmithing. We were both talking about needed change. And so it was great to have Karen who read them separately.

Brett: She wasn't briefed on either of them beforehand and just to have her, See how they work together is really pretty cool. But then, yeah, to your other part of your question. Yeah, I've known Karen now for almost 24 years. And Jerry is just, he's an amazing person because not only did you say he's one of the OG's of his business, but he's always been so good at finding talent and recognizing it in different areas. I didn't come from a consumer insights background. My background was in TV and radio broadcasting for crying out loud. That was what my undergrad was in. And I did that for several years and then worked at Nielsen Media Research for a bit as a bit of a transitional period.

Brett: Out of broadcasting and before getting into this. When he hired me, he was like, you're a little light on talent and insights, but I see potential. We're going to take a chance on you. Whereas it was very different from Karen, who had grown up in this business with her mom having been in market research.

Brett: And so she'd been around it her whole life. So it was great to come together on that first team that we were on together because She had grown up in this business where I was still fairly new to it, but had a different set of experiences and how it worked together on that first team.

Brett: And, you know, a friendship was forged that is still going strong. 

Ryan: I love it. Yeah. I want to comment on Karen further, but I think the thing that you say about Jerry in terms of spotting talent is I think fundamental to the future of this industry. How, however you get curious, strategic,

Ryan: business brain people into consumer insights. We all need to study more because my coauthor was a CMO and a consultant. He runs the third biggest insights organization on the planet and he's really damn good at it. And we need to do a better job of marketing this industry of getting diverse talent and bringing people in who aren't only traditional market researchers.

Ryan: And that's, I think like a lot, I was talking to this on my last episode with Jacci Weber, like there's some really wonderful programs that Michigan State's doing, and they're bringing in like I was mentoring one of the students who was a government employee before this, and he decided he loves business, and he did a little bit of an informational interview of the power of consumer insights and the tools that it brings.

Ryan: And he's going to get into this industry. And I think Jerry spotting a broadcast guy says, Oh, he's smart. He's personable. He can tell stories. I can teach him the rest is what we all need to be a little more comfortable doing. And I think business, particularly when there's like fiscal pressure. You go to this mercenary, everybody's going to have every box of the experience.

Ryan: And I think sometimes you lose out on really wonderful opportunities. And this industry, I think, needs to expand its talent pool. What are some of the ways you think we need to do that? 

Brett: Yeah. It's interesting because this industry, when you talk to people who have been in it as long as you and I have, for 20 years or more, None of us went through a master's program in market research.

Brett: None of us did. And so we all come from an eclectic background of different experiences and things. It's only been within, maybe the last, what, 10 years or so that we have people that are more purposely getting into this industry and then what it's led to is the kind of the circling of the wagons.

Brett: It used to be like, the wagons were way open. Anybody who wants to come in that has something to offer, we would take you. But then it feels like the wagons have been circling a little bit. And when we were looking at job postings and talking to people or something, it's just now, like you said, everybody's looking for that traditional insights person with methodological experience and everything.

Brett: And we're just like, that's not what we need. And we have a whole dedicated to just that. And so To answer your question, we need to get back to that. And especially on the corporate side it's the agency side. I feel he still takes more risks and looks for people that are maybe a little bit out of the box, but corporate kind of really sticks to that traditional thing.

Brett: And I do believe a lot of it is driven by large corporate HR departments that have these hiring criteria. But I think one of the arguments that I make is that. We need to bring people in from other parts of the business. Like I had several opportunities over my career to hire people. And instead of bringing in a traditional market researcher, I grabbed somebody from sales or from supply chain or product development, because they're the end users of our work.

Brett: And if they can come in and say, this is the perspective we need in order for what we do to be more effective for sales, for marketing, for product development, then it's so beneficial to us, but then it's beneficial for them and their career because they get this amazing consumer development and understanding that positions them to do great things when they go back into other areas of the business.

Brett: Cause it's to your point about Jerry and I've said the same thing. It's like, I can teach you methodology and especially on the corporate side, we hire agencies that do most of the lifting anyway. You know, I need persuaders. I need strategic thinkers. I need people who are great at building relationships.

Brett: I need people who can get up and command a room and command respect for what they do. None of that has anything to do with traditional market research training. So, yeah, I think it's broadening our perspective as to who we bring under the tent. 

Ryan: Yeah, I completely agree. And so we're going to go in order of Karen's recommendation with today's review.

Ryan: And the reason we're to go in order of Karen's recommendation is Karen is the future of this industry. Now, she also represents the past. She grew up going to focus group facilities with her mother. She happens to be from a background of traditional training and discipline. And there's a way to get there.

Ryan: And just like Brett said, there's a way to get there if you were in broadcasting, but let me explain why Karen is the future. She knows the details, but she's not crippled by them. She knows how to use software to get her job. She knows when to bring thought partners in. She understands the unit economics of her business and what makes it grow.

Ryan: And she spends her time helping that company drive incremental revenue because they understand their customer. I've seen Karen do it in two companies. Now I've been friends with her for 10 years. And she always makes fun of me when I see her because we have a sarcastic friendship. But I genuinely mean this.

Ryan: We need more Karen's running departments. And I've met people like Karen who aren't from the background of the Insights tree, right? And it just happens that Karen is pragmatic enough to know not to get crippled by this. And so I'm going to segue into a couple of my takeaways that I'd love to discuss with you from reading Insights on the Brink.

Ryan: So the first one, it segues nicely. Karen, as a case study, could be mired all day long by the sample frame and the skip logic and the scales and the methodology. She just chooses not to be, because she doesn't get down. You start, and you talk a lot about this in the book, we spend too much goddamn time talking about the how.

Ryan: With the appendix and the survey design, we don't get to the damn point and I couldn't agree more. I had a guy on this podcast. He was a journalist talking about how this industry is so terrible at getting to the point like The company needs to do this to sell more. It's probably a better place to start an insights presentation than "we surveyed 4, 200 consumers with this sample frame."

Ryan: And so talk to us about how you get out of doing that. Cause I, you see it everywhere everywhere in every company. And it's something that does, it's important. Of course you need credible thinking, but it isn't the thing. It's the enabler of the thing, at least in my opinion. 

Brett: It all comes down to realizing that our job number one is to drive sales, revenue, period.

Brett: We're not here to be a methodologist, we're not here to do research, we're not here to do anything. We are here to make companies money. And so that's where it starts and ends. And if you look at it that way, and then if you look at everything that you do, and really ask yourself, does this give us a path to sales?

Brett: Does this help the company make money? Is this going to help make action happen? Then that's where we have to start because the last thing we want to be viewed as is like what ship and Dan Heath says, yeah, true, but useless. We don't ever want to just be interesting. You know, we don't bring facts that don't have anything to do with anything.

Brett: That's been one of the biggest criticisms of our industry is that we don't understand the impact of what we are researching or how it fits into regular business. And so that's really where we were coming at it with. And so everything after that is about. Does this activate, does this lead to more sales?

Brett: And so then it becomes too, when you're presenting, does the CEO need to know what our methodology is? No, he doesn't. Does he need to know data? No, he doesn't. He needs to be told what to do. And so I put this in the book, but one of my favorite stories was about Al Carey, who was the CEO of Frito lay at the time.

Brett: And by the way, that's another interesting context for me reading your book is I was at PepsiCo for nine years. And so I was definitely curious to see about this revolution, but we'll get into that later. But Al Carey gave us insights. He said, if you can't tell me your story in three slides, you don't have a story.

Brett: And it wasn't jam as much crap on the three slides as you can. It was. Just get to the point, tell me what the story is, what the conflict is, and how we can help the consumer overcome it, period. And so I've adopted this term: I don't need to know everything you know, I just need to know what I need to know.

Brett: And I would tell my partners that when I was on the corporate side and I use that too. It's like my CMO didn't need to know everything I knew. The CEO doesn't need to know everything I know. So we just have to say, what is it that's going to get stuff sold? What's going to happen? And then we go from there. Because we waste a lot of money, bad research in our industry, because we could talk about CEOs not being consumer centric and yeah, we'd like leadership to be better, but let's face it.

Brett: We waste millions of dollars a year as an industry, if not tens or hundreds of millions of dollars as an industry doing worthless research that doesn't lead to sales, 

Ryan: It doesn't lead to sales and even worse, it makes the population not want to engage with us. 

Ryan: You wonder why we have a freaking data quality problem.

Ryan: Well, stop doing 50 minute conjoint surveys that aren't going to work. And I don't have a problem with conjoint by the way, I like conjoint. I've done conjoint at Zappi to help us with our own pricing strategy. But the point is like, what is the thing that you need to know to move units?

Ryan: What is the thing you need to do to move the project forward, to validate the assumption? And I think that's something that we need to do more training. One of the things I see a lot is these really wonderful ambitions, but then a lack of enablement, a lack of orientation to help people grow and change.

Ryan: And so that's why it's an honor to have this podcast with you about these books. Because both of them, Are trying to serve that purpose. 

Brett: Since you're talking about tools, I loved one of the things that you said in there. It's basically one of the things that I loved when you talked about tools. I made a note in the margin that these tools are good, but it's more about what you do with the tools.

Brett: In chapter one, you talked about, big companies have two remaining trump cards, recognizable brands and large amounts of research data. But even with these, there is a catch. The data is only useful as it can be leveraged. At the moment,

Brett: it's sitting in sites where it used, where it's used only once. And it reminded me of something that we would say is that. When I was at PepsiCo, we'd say, look, us and Coke have the exact same data from IRI or Nielsen, POS, whatever else. It's what we do with it that the magic comes in. And another point that I loved about what you said was, yes, you talked about tools that were needed, but you made a whole point of saying it doesn't have to be Zappi.

Brett: Or we can digitize all your stuff for you and you can still use all these other vendors that you use. Thanks. So I wanted to ask you about it because I think a lot of people in our industry associate tools with this is the way things have to be, or that you're defined by the tools or that you're Maybe locked into something when you have tools.

Brett: I'd love to hear more on that whole aspect of, yes, we have this great tool that we help PepsiCo with, but it was far more than just the tool itself. 

Brett: And how do you get companies to say, when you come in and talk about this tool to digitize, how do you get them thinking beyond the tool though?

Brett: Cause that's the big thing. It's like. Our industry is not about tools and methods. It's about getting stuff done. I love how you then made that transition or how you showed tools are enablers, not the destination. 

Ryan: Well, and it links to the same thing you were talking about with stop emphasizing the "how" so much.

Ryan: I mean, the amount of times we scrutinize over what scale to use. And academic statistical research, again, you contrasted this in your book, right? It's not designed to sell. It's scientific. It's designed to prove and how accurate is it? But the statistics data showed is not really that big of a difference between a 10 point scale.

Ryan: So it's preference and we spend hours and hours debating this. And so that's just a point on methodology. But I've said this a lot, Brett. I don't think this industry has a tool or a technology problem. Now, could we be smarter about leveraging the data we have? Could we ask smarter questions?

Ryan: Could we observe more? Could we leverage what we know to only ask the things we don't know? Yes. And I think we need to do that. And I actually do think that that is. and evolution we must make, but that comes from harnessing the data. There are 950 platforms on insightsplatforms.com. There are several large multinational conglomerate agencies.

Ryan: There are several boutique consultancies. There are several companies that specialize in ethnographies, or shopalongs, or product testing. And they're all good. Not all, but most of them are good. Most of them are credible. Most of them are trying to do a good job. But they're utilized without intention.

Ryan: And that is the problem. So the amount of times I ended up having somebody call us and say, Hey There's nothing we're going to do differently. The film is finished. Zappi is an advertising, innovation, and market understanding platform, right? So, the ad's already finished, but we need to get it tested. I heard y'all are fast.

Ryan: And it makes me cringe, because the point of why I joined Zappi is exactly the point Karen made. If you can get all the shit off of Insight's people's plates, technology, and enablement, then Insight's people can be more strategic and help sell more stuff. And then the really strategic thinking partners that they rely on, their agencies, aren't spending 99 percent of the money that Electrolux or Pepsi or whomever pays them to collect the data.

Ryan: They're spending time helping that business think through what to do with it. And that's the disintermediation tension that I've felt for a very, very long time. And so the reason I talk about tools and it doesn't matter is because it's an intention problem.

Ryan: It's an infrastructure problem. And with any sort of IT infrastructure issue, it's about the processes that surround it and the integration of the tooling and the talent around it that makes or breaks whether it delivers the impact. And I think that was the problem within PepsiCo and so many other businesses where it's like we have so many cool things being done in cool ways in different pockets, but none of it is actually leveraging the collective wisdom of the whole company.

Ryan: And none of it is compounding in value as we go, because each time we're figuring out what we're going to do. There was a concept in our book around what an insight stack should look like. And it's not just about tech. It's about the delineation between the technology you use, the data you buy, and the people you use to help you think.

Ryan: And so that's really where I'm coming from. And I haven't felt we've had a technology problem in this industry for at least six years. Yeah. But yet we still operate in a place where most insights departments are going to wake up today when they listen to this episode and get three briefs from marketing that they had no idea were coming because they're not integrated and then they're going to spend the rest of the day figuring out how they're going to answer the question.

Ryan: And, and let's be honest, Brett, there's only like a hundred questions we get, we're answering and it's like, we don't need to figure out this every single time what we're going to do. So that's really where I was coming from with that. 

Brett: Well, and it's interesting too. I mean, you mentioned towards the end of your book about AI, And you know, what's so funny is that AI is now already a commodity, just like all the other methods are.

Brett: You go to a conference now and everybody's talking about our AI tool, and so to me, it's like the AI is the same as the internet was 30 years ago, everybody was all up in arms and the internet was the boogeyman for market research and all it did was move what was going on the phones and in malls and on mail to online and it just changed the data collection process.

Brett: AI is just changing the data collection process. Everybody's got an AI tool now. So it's not enough to just have the tool. You have to know how to translate it into action, profitability, and to your point about doing it the right way. The other thing, just hearing you talk, and then when I was reading the book, when I was at PepsiCo, one of Stephan's predecessors, in that role got up in front of a big insights wide meeting that we had.

Brett: And he said, we at PepsiCo spend as much money on research annually as the Harvard Medical School. Are we getting as much bang for our buck as Harvard is with theirs? Wow. And it really made us open our eyes and say, are we just doing a bunch of worthless crap or are we actually making a difference?

Brett: And but we never got to the level that you got at with Stephan and Kate here about the fact that it's like we're spending all this money. And then obviously he realized once he got in there that we're not getting our money's worth. We're not getting the biggest bang for our buck because a lot of times, and I've noticed this at other stops where I've been corporately, is that you're doing a lot of the same stuff.

Brett: There's just not a lot of this going on. And so it's bringing it all together and realizing, no, there's a better way that we can be doing this. And it's just, how do we go about it? And you guys help them figure it out, which I think is great, cause I've lived through a lot about it when I was at PepsiCo and there, and it doesn't mean there wasn't amazing research being done because we did.

Brett: But I was in a global role for two years and went all around the world and saw all the things that were going on. It's like, well, we did that in the U S or I know that's being done over in Europe and we could totally share what's going on accounting for cultural differences, of course but yet there's, there was a better way to do it.

Brett: Stephan came in and said, we're going to finally figure this out and take the time to do it. And I think it was great that he was afforded the time to create this because I don't think any of his predecessors felt like there was the time to take the step back, which he did. But now It's take one step back, but now they're like five steps forward. 

Ryan: Stephan, I'll be the first to say this, he bet his whole job on this transformation, 

Brett: You could tell.

Ryan: And a lot of people on his team did too.

Ryan: And it took a long time. It wasn't quick. So this book explains it in 200 pages and now we can help businesses do it in less than a year. But we were figuring this out together on the fly. There was no playbook. We were just constantly Ooh, what do we do here? We got to iterate. We got to change. But I think the point is like a big business like PepsiCo.

Ryan: I didn't realize that Harvard staff. That's just fascinating. I know it was. They have, that's like insane. Harvard's curing cancer and we're selling snacks. I mean, like, you know, like it's, it's a different game, but that's a business that has. And you want to leverage the power of scale that you have globally to really exploit local P&Ls to drive new SKUs, new brands, and growth across the business.

Ryan: But equally, you see small businesses without the legacy baggage. Like one of the businesses that, actually I was just with their head of marketing today. Here in Boston, SoFi was a 50 million bank when we met them, and they had no baggage of how, here's how we've always done it. And the marketing department was like, we've just got to be consumer centric.

Ryan: So how do we build an ecosystem so everything we do brings the customer into the process? And Helps us learn. And I think a lot of times people think, well, I'm not as big as Pepsi and therefore I can't do this. And I would actually argue it's almost easier to do it. If you're not, 

Brett: It's way easier. Yeah. We have those now that I'm back on the consulting side, have those same kinds of conversations, you know, and they see, Oh, you I've worked at all these big companies or whatever.

Brett: I'm like, guys, you're, if you're in a smaller business, it's a lot easier. You have to get less people on board. There's less that you have to undo. And the principles are the same. And I think that's the great thing about both of our books. Again, it doesn't matter how big your company is, it doesn't matter where you are, you can implement these things.

Brett: And it doesn't matter if you're a small company just starting out if you're a midsize company starting to grow. Or if you're a big established brand, they're ways that we can improve And be better with what we're doing. 

Ryan: It's true. And I think if I contrast the really small businesses that are now big or the Pepsi’s this is why I'm now high on this CEO sponsorship concept because you know who also bet on this? CEO of Pepsi. And it was mission critical.

Ryan: And I think you talked about this about 10 minutes ago around AI. And what's interesting is I've never seen this happen before, but we had a conference a few weeks ago with our customers and this aha moment that insights is actually leading the AI agenda in a lot of businesses, but it's not because of AI. AI, as you said, is a commodity.

Ryan: And we have this internal debate here at Zappi. Is it the AI that's the magic or is it our data? And if the answer isn't our data, then we have to keep innovating because Not a moat. It's not. But this is why I think Insights people, and I'm really soothed to see this, are leading the AI agenda because consumer data plus AI is a superpower, not AI alone.

Ryan: What is consumer data? It's rich. It's robust. It helps, particularly some of the narrative work y'all do. It helps you better understand the holistic orientation of the market, not just what they think about one thing. Bringing culture and perception and attitudes and opinions and what people feel and what they do and what they think.

Ryan: And then using language models to enable everybody to be able to access that is a superpower. And I mean, I know at least 20 heads of insights or directors of insights or managers of insights who are on their company's core AI committee and they're the ones driving and it's because they understand what to do with data and their data is actually useful.

Ryan: And that's why I think both of our books are important because if we get our systems right and we get our talent right, and we get our skill orientation right. Our data can go into the matrix because if it doesn't, we're going to get sales data and operational data, and we're never going to understand why things happen and that scares me. 

Brett: And you bring up the why no matter how great your analytics are, it will only really give you the what, you know, like if you're just looking at straight numbers and data, and I tell people this, there's no emotion and there's no empathy in data and it's the same way You know, a I doesn't have emotion.

Brett: It doesn't feel empathy, and so in addition to these things, it's like you said, we still and you talked about in your book a lot about if you just do this, it frees you up to do the stuff that really matters. And then, and and I take that to mean you guys mentioned. Here's what really matters.

Brett: And I would add to that. It's that empathy. It's really getting into that emotion and building those emotional stories. And it also comes into effect with innovation because I've been noticing a lot of people saying, Oh, yeah, we're using these AI tools for innovation. And I'm like, then you're gonna end up with what everybody else putting out there.

Brett: Because AI only pulls from what currently exists. And so it's like baseball and basketball. Everybody had access to the same data and the same AI and whatever else. And what happened? We saw the same shifts. We saw the same, zero outcome at bats. You know, either a home run or a strikeout.

Brett: We see dunks or three pointers and everybody's doing it. And so it's not innovative. And so we lose touch with what truly makes us create innovative solutions for consumers if we're too focused on techniques or methods or tools or things like that. And so, and I think that's the beauty of it is that you guys talk about this just to help you clear things out of the way.

Brett: It's not. So it's not going to be the end all be all. It's going to free you up to do things that are really more important. Like you had a whole chapter about what do  I do with my day now that i'm not managing all these stupid projects? You know, it's like, well, guess what, and this is where our books come together,

Brett: You get to be the kind of insights leader that you should have been all along, which is strategic thinking and all of these other things about having this kind of mindset, this growth mindset, this consumer centricity, this empathy, you know, being able to make real consulting strategic decisions within your company.

Brett: That's what you get to do. And that's the fun part. That's when you're, that's why everybody did it. Yeah. And that's why that's when you have that seat at the table with the CEO, with the CMO that we keep saying we want, but we're never going to get if all we're doing is managing projects and spewing out data.

Ryan: That's all that's gonna, yeah, and I think like the system frees you up to be strategic. The exhaust of the system is every time you learn, the data gets smarter. I almost think of it as like a sourdough starter. So you want your insights people to be freed up of shit so that they can be strategic and help you sell more, whatever you sell.

Ryan: And the reason that they're uniquely positioned to do that is they understand why people do what they do. But they can't help you understand why, what they do all day if they're running projects. So there's like a chicken and egg thing there. Inside the data assets, I've seen that if you're not constantly giving data assets new learning, new perspectives, you're just going to get the same answer.

Ryan: And what scares me about this AI revolution is if we're not feeding consumer data into it, we're going to have homogenous brands. And that sucks. 

Brett: But we're talking about homogenous innovation too. Because, we see products. That get launched from different brands and they're exactly the same because they're just using that same kind of homogenized approach and they're not trying to be unique or authentic or tell that unique brand story that they have.

Brett: That one of the things that I tell people is if you're not, if you're not having to bog yourself down with data and methodology, you get to be storytellers. Now you get to do the fun part of our job. Amen. You know, it's and that's what I think people don't understand. I used this quote with someone when I was talking to him the other day, it was about it was from Shawshank Redemption.

Brett: And it's when Red is talking about the power that the walls of the jail have, and he says, “At first you hate them, then you get used to them, then you grow to depend on them.” And I think we're kind of the same way with tools and concepts. We don't like them at first because we feel that it's too restrictive.

Brett: And then we grow to depend on those methodologies and tools and things like that. And then. It's like we get used to it and then we just like depend on it. And I talk and when we talk about AI, it's just like, if you if insights professionals view their job as being project managers and methodologists and things like that, then you ought to be afraid of AI because it will take your, but the insights people who are strategic thinkers, who are storytellers, who focus on empathy and emotion and driving revenue and consulting and things like that. They're the ones that are going to be even more in demand than they used to be. And I was talking with a president of a smaller company. He's like, I'm just not getting what I need for my insights based on this stuff that you're telling me.

Brett: I'm like, maybe you need new insights people, because trust me, there's great insights people out there like there are, or whatever else who really, who understand this and do this. If CEOs have a bunch of methodologists on their staff, either they need to change their mindset and evolve, or you know what, you need to bring people in who can help you because CEOs are desperate for insights.

Brett: They're absolutely desperate. It's not that the need for insights is going away. It's just, they're not getting what they need from some of their insights departments sometimes. And so. It's so they'll hire it out to BCG or Bain or some of them because they're focused on outcomes and that we need to be more outcome focused.

Brett: And I think that is the key, I think, to your book is that you could look at it as, oh, this is just a Zappi tool that they're talking about. It's like, no, this is, A way to free you up to do these other things where the tool isn't the hero the tool is just a method to free PepsiCo up to do all the other things that they've been wanting to do but haven't been able to or bogged down to do or whatever else and it's the same with insights you know I mean if we do insights the right way just freeze the company then to go in totally great directions that it's not able to at this point.

Ryan: Yeah, that's right. That's right. So everybody, we're out of time. We ask you to be more like Karen. I know we could talk for longer. Be more like Karen. Know the methods, but don't be crippled by them. Focus on what sells. Get a system in place so that you can be freed up to be strategic and drive empathy in your business and grow.

Ryan: And more fun at work because nobody’s gotta do market research to work on projects all day. 

Brett: And don't be afraid of the change. Don't be afraid of the mindset shift that has to happen because the evolution or the revolution, it's needed. And it's actually fun when you get there. And I would even say even the process can be fun to get there because you, the lights start to go on during the process where you start to get the vision of what it can become.

Brett: And when you go through the processes that we both outline in these books, the lights start to go on and I think it could bring the love of what we do back to a number of people that are kind of stuck in the rut. 

Ryan: That are stuck. Brett, this has been so fun. I can't wait to see you again. Where can people find the book and where can they get in touch with you if they want to invite you to speak with their staff or learn more?

Brett: Yeah, we've developed a training based on the book. Whether it's a corporate training or just departments or whatever, but yeah, you can just find the book on Amazon, Insights on the Brink. And you can go to Questor.com or or just find me on LinkedIn and I'm not hard to find.

Ryan: Perfect. Brett, thank you. Everybody. Thank you for listening. Take it easy, everybody.