Inside the mind of a customer transformation legend

Ryan Barry:

Hi, everybody. Welcome to this episode of Inside Insights, a podcast powered by Zappi. I'm here today, not only with my co-host, but I'm also here with today's guest and they're the same person. Her name is Patricia Montesdeoca, the SVP of Customer Transformation here at Zappi, longtime insights legend and my friend. Hi Patricia.

Patricia Montesdeoca:

Hey Ryan. How you doing?

Ryan:

I'm doing really good, thanks. Everybody who's listening, I just got Patricia all fired up, talking about meta analytics and then I said, "Alright, let's do the podcast now." So, if we go on a tangent about meta analytics, it's because I just got her all wound up about it. I wish we recorded your Ted talk about meta analytics, Patricia, it was epic.

Patricia:

Oh yes. Thank you for listening to my Ted Talk.

Ryan:

Anytime. So to our lovely listeners, this is the grand finale of season two and we were talking about getting other guests and I said, "You know what? I just want to talk to Patricia." Because the thing about Patricia is she's actually really a bad-ass and has done a lot in the insights space. Not only as a corporate research person, which is how I met her, but also in transforming the way departments work and use software to do their jobs as a member of the team at Zappi. So I thought it'd be a really cool conversation to have with Patricia to reflect on some of her own learnings and development as a professional, but also how she translates that with our customers. So thank you Patricia, for being in this season two finale. It's going to be a lot of fun.

Patricia:

Thank you for asking me.

Ryan:

So Patricia, you've been in the insights business for a couple of years now. How long to be exact?

Patricia:

Since 1993.

Ryan:

So since 1993. She's the only person in history who joined the consumer insights industry at the age of three. So, that's pretty cool.

Patricia:

It's very cool.

Ryan:

So you've worked at some iconic brands, Gatorade, Coca-Cola company, Colgate-Palmolive, Quaker. Where else? What am I missing?

Patricia:

I think yeah. We did Colgate, Colgate was a large part of my life. I did it local for Colombia, then divisional for Latin America and then global for personal and home care. So, that took a lot too.

Ryan:

The Colgate blood runs deep. So Patricia, my friend, let's talk about your world before you got into software. So you've been in, from what I understand, global COE, regional roles, capability roles, take us through some of the roles, maybe some of the pros and cons of the experience that you've had.

Patricia:

Knowing that we were going to have this chat today, I started going down memory lane, which was such a pleasure. I actually started in human resources, but we're going to skip all that part, right? Because I'm an organizational psychologist. 

Ryan:

You know, I could see that. I could totally see that.

Patricia:

And then I changed countries. And when you change countries, your life changes. And I was an organizational psychologist and I was consulting and so an agency hired me. An agency that has been rebranded recently. I love research, which I find… So they hired me to do some restructuring of their company. And so as I did that work at that time, many years ago, it was called re-engineering. I learned the research function, the whole entire business from the ground up. I mean, soup to nuts. I knew how to photocopy the questionnaires when they were in paper and pencil.

And so I did every single role in the company. And then when we finished it, I redesigned it and I handed the report back and I said, "This is what you need to do. This is who you need to hire. This is what training you need. And you have a large opening and as director of national quant" and he says, "You're hired." I'm like, "What? No, no, I'm a consultant." He's like, "No, you're doing that job. And you're staying here." And so I ended up staying, he made me an offer I couldn't refuse. And that's how I got into research.

So I learned it from the ground up as a consultant. And I fell in love with it just from the beginning, because as you well know, because you know me well, I never left the four year old stage of asking why. And I really want to know if it's red or if it's blue, but not just if it's red or if it's blue, but why. So the agency taught me that first one about the love of research and they taught me to be totally customer centric and to listen to them.

Then I moved to Gatorade. I got pulled out by a head hunter and I learned scrappy research. I was the fifth employee to be hired at Gatorade, Colombia. We were launching a category that didn't exist in this country, hydration. And so I got to do scrappy research that had to hold up to HQ and Quaker central in Chicago. So, that was so much fun. I got to use all my creativity and I made my vendors my absolute partners in crime. And I got so much done underneath the radar, over the radar, on the side of the radar. It was just so much fun. I enjoyed it immensely.

Ryan:

What was that like? I happen to know Gatorade really well, worked with them for a long time, analytics machine, iconic brands. They could put out garbage and it would sell because of the routes, but not in Colombia when you were there. I would imagine an up and coming brand. So what was that contract?

Patricia:

We launched it.

Ryan:

You launched the brand?

Patricia:

We launched it. We had to fight the beverage kings to launch this, this tiny little brand called Gatorade, not Gatorade, Gatorade, right? So they wanted to buy-

Ryan:

Gatorade, I dig that.

Patricia:

Gatorade, the green one or the red one or the orange one. And Nielsen didn't measure us. We had to create our own systems. So I had two agencies merge and join and play nice together to use technology to create what I needed to have, so that I could report back to HQ all of the metrics that I needed in the regularity. Have my tracking have everything. So I had to teach my whole entire team. What top of mind is, and why the 2.5 top of mind, six months after launching or three months after launching was an amazing thing to celebrate, and so on and so forth. So it was an education, not only of my team internally, the marketing, the sales, the senior management, but also of Colombia.

It was so cool. This is what hydration is. So the whole entire process, it was like having another child was just the most amazing thing ever. And I could not have done it without the partnership of my vendors. And so I learned to lean on them, and use their technology so that we could create things for me in that light, because I had to report and nobody was going to say, "Oh, poor her, she's in Colombia. We don't have to require it from her." No, I had to do my job. So, that was what Gatorade taught me. I left Gatorade when it was being bought by Pepsi. So I got an offer that I decided to accept from Colgate. And I went into Colgate and in Colgate I learned change management.

In Colgate local I learned change management. And I learned to actually live and breathe the five levels of why, because I walked into a place that was aggressive because they didn't want change. And I came in from the outside and they didn't want that. We're used to people coming in as interns. And so I had to not only create the role because I was charged with creating a larger role. It was more of a vendor inside like a dark thing in a dark corner. And I had to make it something part of the whole entire commercial team, both marketing and sales. So the change management process was slow. It was very painful at times, but very, very rewarding. I learned that one person can and should make a difference. And all you have to do is just listen really carefully and understand why it is that they're resisting.

And when you figure out why it is that they're resisting, offer them something. This is all internal. I'm not even talking about consumers. I'm talking about internal. Why is it that what you're offering is going to make their job easier. So selling the insights function internally to my marketing team, who by the way, are still some of my best friends and who I party with to this day. That's how close we became after all of this. It's something that's so worth the effort. It takes time, you have to be patient, but if you're really clear on what your function is and how you can make the commercial function, marketing and sales, which includes customer marketing, retail marketing, trade marketing, professional marketing, consumer marketing, how insights can help all of those businesses grow. Then you have absolute success and you have change management. 

Ryan:

Before you leave that point, I want to stay here for a minute. So we won't ask you to air the favorite drink of every CMO that Colgate-Palmolive has ever had. What are the consistent themes that you would say people in sales and marketing are looking for out of consumer insights? Is there a couple that ring true after all these years?

Patricia:

Yes. Two things. What don't you want? Believe it or not de-selection is really important when you're building a portfolio, when you're launching new products, it's like, what do people hate? And this is something that I came to after the five levels of why. Because the first question people ask is, what do people love? Let's figure out what they hate and get rid of that. And when you're left with a subset of the things that people can tolerate, then you start looking for preferences and you can build a portfolio.

So that's the first thing that I see that is the same for consumer, for professional marketing or the dentists and vets. For trade marketing right by retail environment or for shopper marketing because the shoppers are doing something different. Looking at Walmart, or Target, or Exito, or Carrefour, you have to understand what they will tolerate and what they want. So we de-select first of all so that the path is clear and you only have what's important leftover. Then when you have the important stuff, then start asking what you really want and why. And then you can make your selection so much easier.

Ryan:

So when you say, what do you really want you to? You're asking them that?

Patricia:

The consumer, whoever the end consumer is whether it's the dentist, the vet, the Walmarts of the world, or the end consumer or the shopper. Whoever it is, I'm speaking to. Because remember, as an insights professional for the whole company, I had different stakeholders and each of them had a different end consumer.

Ryan:

You know why I like that? Everybody who dogs consumer research says, well, as Henry Ford asked people what they wanted, they would've said faster horses. But that's all of those people knew about. So if you would've said, "Oh, let's play this through. I want a faster horse." And you say, "Why?" And I say, "Well, I want to get where I'm going and quicker. I want to be less exposed to the environment. I don't want my hair to get messy." That doesn't mean that I'm Ford and I'm going to go make a faster horse. It means that I'm going to tell you what I want, what I don't want and why. And it's on you to be creative. So Patricia, you might've just by accident, come up with the best response to that question, which does make me mad every time I hear it. Almost as mad as when people ask if Zappi is a tech company. Because I think that's another stupid question.

Patricia:

Number two, in your favorites, nobody ever said, I want a smartphone. They said they wanted faster computers and they want smaller computers, and they want portable computers. Nobody ever said it. You want it all on the phone.

Ryan:

It's very rare.

Patricia:

That's how I interpret it.

Ryan:

It's one of the things like, oh, consumer co-creation is where it's at, but it's also, I think if you lens consumer insights, we talk about it as amplification. Let the creatives be creative. And I love that frankness. What are you want? And why? And the why is what matters.

Patricia:

Exactly.

Ryan:

Anyways, I'm sorry to derail you with this but it's really fun.

Patricia:

Not at all.

Ryan: 

And then you go into a global role. If I remember correctly after that.

Patricia:

No, I actually quit because I had reached the ceiling and then the amazing, amazing company of Colgate said, why would you quit? What do you want to do? I'm like, this is what I want to do and there's no role. So let's make a role. And so I wanted to get into shopper marketing and business analytics for the Latin American division. So I was literally presented with a white piece of paper and they said, draw it. So James Tagney, who has since retired an amazing, amazing manager said to me, you draw it. And so that has a double-edged sword when you present and they accept it. They actually said to me, if you succeed, we're going to take all of the credit and say that we're a wonderful company and that we're so flexible. And if you fail, it's all your fault, are you willing to go?

I'm like, I'm in. So they put it to me that way, because they wanted to see how much commitment and how much engagement and how much security I had that this was actually going to work because this is something that was a risk for them as well. I was doing a remote job a long, long, long, long time ago, right? For a whole entire division and a role that didn't exist, whose job it was to create a department that was then going to be absorbed back into the company so that we could make sure that we were treating the shoppers and the retailers and the trade the way they needed to be treated. That was so scary and so much fun. And I learned so much about influencing without power. That's what I learned in that role, because I had not one penny of budget and not one single, at the beginning, person reporting to me. At the end I had a large group, but that's how I started.

I just started by peddling my wares. And that's when I played with the data. I used technology. If it wasn't for technology, I could have never done that job. I played and I merged every single piece of data I could. And I used everything I could to make insight and to generate stories and then selling my stories. And that's how it went into a snowball effect and started growing. But it was just the data, the tech, and me when I did that.

Ryan:

Super cool.

Patricia:

It was very cool. And the third level at Colgate is global level and everything I learned about change management and then everything I learned about leadership without a budget or without influence. However you lead by that, I was able to take those two competencies and those learnings and take them to the global role where you have a smaller budget, but you are only leading because people have to believe in you.

So, everything I learned about being scrappy, everything I learned about influencing. Everything I learned about finding out what the customer and the consumer want and what they don't want and why. I was able to use it for my global role. And it was because what they asked me to do that the remit in that role was restructure the insights role so it becomes much more merged with the marketing role in global. They needed to be more of a team, right? Less a person that does research because they were changing the way research was viewed and how it was used at the global level. So all of the work that I had done before layered perfectly into this role. And so that's when knowledge management started coming in and I was able to take knowledge management and work with Frank Santiago. The infamous Frank Santiago that we all know and love. And we started working together to make sure that the data was all organized and that everything that I had done in local and the division all rolled up into the right place into global. 

Ryan:

That's a lot. So I think the Colgate experience is great. Although I don't know how psychologically safe it is to say, if you fail, it's on you, if it's... So we'll give them a free pass because psychological safety wasn't exactly vogue then. But I was sitting there…

Patricia:

It wasn't exactly vogue.

Ryan:

What a tough conversation.

Patricia:

It was, but remember I had quit, so they knew that…

Ryan:

Yeah, good point.

Patricia:

I was okay. And they wanted to make sure they were taking a huge risk. I didn't take it... I mean, maybe I've got thicker skin, but I didn't feel unsafe. I felt actually very empowered. I felt that I had absolute power to make this work and they were going to give me what I needed to make it work. And they were joking. I mean, I got all the kudos and all the credit. I actually got promoted out of it, right? When it succeeded, but they wanted to see if I was willing to go the last mile. And I really think it's fine.

Ryan:

Really commit to it. I think that makes-

Patricia:

Yeah, I think it's fine.

Ryan:

You had a great tenure at Colgate, one of the most iconic brands in the world, big, I mean, just an incredible company, which I've come to know and love over the last couple of years. Then you go down Atlanta. Very different company.

Patricia:

Atlanta. So you have heard this story, but just for the record, Colgate is one of those beautiful cruise ship liners that goes at a very steady and slow-ish space in the same direction. And when they decide to change, they all align and they say, let's turn right. And the ship starts turning right, correct? That's the Queen Elizabeth II. That's how I envision, how I described the beauty of the Colgate-Palmolive machine. 

Ryan:

That's true. I've come to know Colgate, but when they move, they do get there. I mean-

Patricia:

Oh yes.

Ryan:

I mean, they're one of the more advanced insights functions on the planet. It's straight up and down. 

Patricia:

They were successful in ROI and everything. Well then move, they move. But they think about it first. Then there's Coke. At Coke you say, let's turn right and before you finish your sentence. Everybody's turned right. But because it's a Cirque de Soleil. So if I had one image for you for Coca-Cola company, it's Cirque de Solei. I don't know if you've ever been, but Cirque du Soleil-

Ryan:

I have, I went to the Beatles one, one time.

Patricia:

Oh man. So for me, Cirque du Soleil is the embodiment of absolute beauty and grace and agility and craziness and mayhem. But everybody knows exactly what they're doing. And it's an excess of stimulus and everybody's going, and everybody's going breakneck speed and everything is beautiful and everybody turned right and nobody hits anybody else. Isn't that amazing?

Ryan:

Amazing.

Patricia:

But it works. It works. Every department has their own internal rules that all obey to the larger Coca-Cola rules. Right. They use technology so well. They have an internal tracking system that knows their health. And they're very much on track and they all have a center like a core that's the same, but everybody's got the liberty to do their own thing. And there, when I was managing just little brands like Coke, right? And Sprite and Fanta, we were able to use everybody's inner compass of what's right and wrong about their brand.

Layer in everything, consumer in there, I used so many beautiful, wonderful partner vendors, vendor partners, both qualitative and quantitative. And they work together to evolve because you cannot make a mistake on Coke, dude. You cannot make a mistake on Coke, right. To evolve these brands and make them go to the next step. And I feel so proud. I just feel so proud to have been part of that journey. It was a short tenure. It was only two years. And then I got restructured because they decided to change the way global was structured to give the power more to the divisions. And I didn't want to go to Turkey.

Ryan:

You don't want to go to Turkey?

Patricia:

No, I didn’t.

Ryan:

I hear it is a beautiful country.

Patricia:

It is. To go on a vacation, but I didn't want to go live there by myself. I was by myself at that time, kids all grown up and stuff. So I started looking and I started looking and I asked for something. You know how you have a wishlist of what you want? My wish list was really demanding because, I did the same thing that I do for customers, right. I looked at my job description of all the jobs I've ever had. And I got rid of the stuff I didn't want to do. And I left with the stuff I love to do, which is what I've been kind of highlighting to you here. And then I made a list of the things that I should learn more about. And where there were gaps.

And I started looking for the cities that I could live in and Zappi went to the top. And it was, it was great because I was looking at LinkedIn and I saw because of my vendor relationship with you and Joe and Bailey and Joseph, I saw the opening and I immediately texted Joseph on a Sunday saying, "Joseph there's an opening in Zappi." It was the best thing ever. And so that's how I came to be. But although it clicked so many of the boxes that I had in my incredibly ridiculously demanding list, but I'm about to come to my third year anniversary, but it's been a lovely, lovely ride, but not an easy ride. But it's been interesting, this ride. I don't know how it's been on your side, but for me it's been very interesting. Lots of amazing learning.

Ryan:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's been all love for my side. I mean, so I'll tell you a funny story. The first time I ever met Patricia, I was pitching at a conference. And I've never told you this story, you came up to me afterwards and you were a ball of energy and you go, "I got to be honest. I don't give a shit about any of this old stuff." And I go, "What do you mean?" She's like, "You guys automated Millward Brown and all this other stuff. I don't give a shit about that. I want to talk about new stuff."

And you don't know this Patricia, but I left that conference and that was one of my key takeaways. Which has led to our strategy now, which is we build solutions with brands, for them so that they can make the best ideas and best ads better. I think that's my first and only plug I'll ever do on this podcast for what Zappi does. We're really cool company check us out. 

Anyways, that was my first impression of you. Obviously you and Julio hit it off and you joined us at a time where our culture and those of you who don't know me, culture is everything to me. Our culture was going through a very painful set of teething pains. Zappi was a great culture for some about three years ago, but not for all. And Patricia came in and really helped me probably more than anything, see it for what it was and see it for what it is. And now I'm very proud to say our culture is good for everybody.

Patricia:

Absolutely.

Ryan:

Older, younger, different walks of life. And I think so you were here at a very formable time and oh, by the way, this is part of our transition. You've also helped some of the most bad-ass companies in the world modernize.

Patricia:

Yeah.

Ryan:

Before we talk about them, let's stay with you a minute. You learned about curiosity, about partnership, about change management and the power of why, about shopper, about experiments, about influencing or leading without authority and about bringing different thinking together. And in your last experience at Coke moving fast, which... Coke might move fast but I don't think they move as fast as we do.

Patricia:

No.

Ryan:

I don't think they move as fast as we do.

Patricia:

Nobody moves as fast as we do.

Ryan:

All that learning and experience, as you said, it wasn't the easiest thing for you. So I'd like you to reflect for a few minutes. What did you learn in your introduction to working at a tech company? And I'm not just asking, cause you're my guest. But if you think of the state of play today, a lot of people are saying, "I want to get to where the market's going. I don't want to be where it is." I mean, I get 30, 40 inbound resumes a week and that's the sentiment. But if you've worked in a big organization or a big agency your whole career, there is a learning curve. Talk to us about that learning curve. So everybody else who listens to get the benefit of some of the learnings you got to go through.

Patricia:

First thing you need to know, right, is it's scary AF. Sorry, but that's the only way to describe it when you get restructured over 50. When you get restructured over 50, you think your life is over and there are podcasts and blogs and people because it's a different place to be at 20, 25, 30 than to rethink your whole entire life at 50. I'm incredibly blessed because I have a support system that's ridiculous. But the first thing I did is I sat down and I made a list of what I know for today's market and what I don't know. And I did this with the help of LinkedIn and all the job descriptions that were interesting to me. So when I started looking at the new, not the same job that I had before, what I wanted to do next, what I wanted to evolve, what I want…

Remember you know me, I haven't said this in this chat, but you know me, comfort zone is not my place to be. It's not my favorite place. The moment I feel comfortable. I want to move again because I get bored, right? So in order to move, before I jump, I need to know what I know and what I don't know. So the moment I figure out what I don't, which is similar to what we were talking about earlier about the consumer, what they hate and what they want and why, right? And so once I figured out what I knew and what I didn't know, I started to think about what role, what I could bring to you, the Zappi’s of the world. This is what I can bring. I can bring this, this, this, and this. And you need to know, Zappi’s of the world, I don't know this, this, this, or this. That doesn't mean that I can't learn it.

I can learn it. Why can I learn it? Because I've learned this, this, this, this, this, and this and this. So you need to be very clear when you make the change from any job to another job, especially if you're changing industries, even within the insights community, you have to be honest with yourself and honest with the people who might hire you about your competencies and how transferable they are. But unless you can imagine the transfer, then you can't make it real. You have to understand that a belt can be used to pull up your pants. It can also be used to cinch a dress, and it can also be used to tie a suitcase together if the suitcase is falling apart. That's one belt. Transferable knowledge.

Why? Because at the end of the day, layers of why, what does a belt do? It pulls things together. So they don't fall apart or they don't fall down. So, you have to get down to that level of understanding of yourself. And that's a scary place to be. It's a very scary place to be. Right? And so, one of the things that I had on my resume that I knew about is that I'm a good translator. I've translated from marketing to insights and from insights to marketing, from sales to insights from R&D to marketing and back to insights from English to Spanish, Spanish, to English, from old people to young people and young people to old people.

So, that's something I could do. So I had the proof to myself and to my new employers that I could translate. So now I had to translate for other people and for myself what I knew about insights and how do I transfer it to technology to not become a full service supplier, right? Not just to go into work for that, but how to make it technology, how to leverage technology, how to ask the questions in that way. But you have to do that first. That's your first thing to do.

Ryan:

Yeah, I like that. I think one of the things I'm hoping to change in the world is vulnerability. I give you a lot of credit for what you said. This is what I am, this is what I'm not, but I'm a learner is way more attractive to me as an employer than I'm the best at everything and I worked at Coke, so you should hire me. So the other thing, a little comment for me. Ageism in tech. It's real, people.

Patricia:

Oh God, is it ever.

Ryan:

I've stayed silent on this topic and I shouldn't partly because I think it's a competitive advantage for me. But seriously, tech companies, there's a lot of talent above the age of 24 if you go to look for it. Wild concept. So anyways, I finally have said it, I will be more vocal on this topic because I know the struggle is actually real. And that's why there's so much emotion.

Patricia:

Oh yeah.

Ryan:

I've personally had, I think a hundred percent batting average on people over 50. Just saying. Just saying.

Patricia:

So, whenever you start getting vocal on this, I'm right there next to you because, but it's a two way street. Hey, people over 50, you've got a lot to offer.

Ryan:

Yes they do. Yes you do.

Patricia:

But you have to think about changing. You have to think about morphing. And I have many friends who just won't and have lost their jobs because they won't change because they know best. And so for example, I came to Zappi and one of my coworkers. She's no longer here, but she greeted me with, "I'm so glad you came. Now there's somebody older than me." And so, I was officially the oldest person at Zappi. And I thought that was a badge. And I was worried that Zappi wouldn't want me because I was old. And Julio, bless his soul, was worried that I wouldn't want to work with a bunch of young people. And I'm like, "I'm for it, that's fantastic, it keeps me young." So, it's both sided, we're both afraid, and we're both, we're both uncomfortable. But there's something else that's real, not just the soft part.

There's something hard. Now, think about it. Language. Remember I told you I was good at translating? Well, I thought I was better than I was. Turns out that translating personal and work language, the language that is used in the Boston office, I had to Google 80% of everything you guys said, both verbally and in Slack because it was lingo. It was culturally referenced lingo. It was Boston language. It was 20 something, 30 something language. I had no idea of the culture. So I leveraged my support system. I mean, my kids are in their twenties, so they helped me a lot. They laughed a lot, but they helped me a lot and Google and Wikipedia figuring out what all the acronyms meant, but not the work acronyms. I'm talking about the social acronyms. It was so funny, but I learned so much, so, so much.

And then the electronics and everything being online and Google docs. Never in my life, never in my life, in my long career had I ever thought that sharing a document while it was being constructed was a positive thing. The first time I used Google share remember, I'm over 50 here, right? I felt like I was without underwear, like I wasn't wearing clothes. Like I was naked because I was writing and I was creating and I was making mistakes and I was changing my mind and everybody could see. But now I can't imagine a world without sharing at the same time, because then it's so much faster, so much more efficient, something as simple as Google docs, it's just the most revelating, simple technology that could ever have come to my life. Something so simple.

Ryan:

But that's a profound lesson, right, for the people who are now your customers. That takes a lot of cojones because it says I'm willing to not show you perfection and engage in thinking with you.

Patricia:

Exactly.

Ryan:

And I think for leaders that assumes you're creating a safe environment where “why isn't this perfect?” is not a question. So on my side of the fence, I get pissed when somebody sends me something when it's perfect. Because if you send somebody that you're going to partner with the raw thinking, you can build it better and then get it pretty. But a lot of time, I think in big business, Patricia, gets wasted on the beautification of early stage thinking versus actually the enhancement of thinking. Which is obviously what you're describing with Google Drive and stuff.

Patricia:

I don't think you realize how profound what you just said is. Now, take what you just said and turned around and make it consumer facing. If you present a consumer in a concept test with a beautiful concept and the finished package and something absolutely perfect and ready to be put on shelves, and you say to them, "What do you think?" What do you think they're going to say? "Well, it's beautiful."

Ryan:

Yeah.

Patricia:

But if you present them with a pencil sketch and ideas and you say, "Look, I'm just beginning to try this out. Can you help me figure this out" early in the stage? The consumer’s gonna be like “oh yeah, I can help you” because I mean, Latinos will tell you to your face when you ask them. "I can't tell her it's bad. It's her work. That's criticizing her on a personal level." Well if you bring them in early, whether it's a consumer or a shopper or a vet, right? And you ask them, "Help me co-create that." Now it's us at Zappi asking our brands or our customers, "Help me co-create this" that's very different.

But we have to understand that they don't understand most of the time and pardon the redundancy of the word, but not everybody understands co-creation. Now Julio has been teaching me for three years almost now, about automation. Now, I had to learn that I could ask, "I'd like this to be a little different, please. Could we add something?" Because I never had this close access to the tech people, the people who actually made the magic. Now I have a magic wand and it's always at my fingertips because the tech people are such wizards that I say, "Wouldn't it be nice if we could do this? And it would make it easier because of this." And they actually make it happen.

Ryan:

And they make it happen.

Patricia:

But this took me a year or so to understand that I had this power. And therefore, the moment I realized I had the power and the responsibility, I had to start understanding the vocabulary. Julio again, Julio, man, you're amazing because he talks about walking in their shoes and understanding their language. Not asking them to understand ours, let's understand tech. So if I started understanding my needs and then their vocabulary, I can start telling them what I need and therefore they can help make my life better. This is one of the large, large learning curves for coming from corporate America or corporate global to a tech company.

Ryan:

It's that vocabulary and the ability to engage and to resonate with people. I think that makes a lot of sense. And we speak so much about that with consumers. If you use their words, oftentimes it's better than using your words, right?

Patricia:

Oh, yeah.

Ryan:

All right. Well, Patricia, you've been very gracious with your time. I did your normal wrap up while we were talking. I'm just going to save it as a little surprise for the end.

Patricia:

Go for it.

Ryan:

There's many things I'm always impressed with about you, but I think the growth mindset, the curiosity, your ability to listen, to understand are three attributes that if Patricia is a customer of yours, I'd highly recommend you get coaching on. Because she's nice and she's gracious with her time. So she will help you. So Patricia, last question for you. Some advice to an earlier in their career version of yourself who is working in a corporate insights department saying, "There's a lot of change I need to drive, but I don't know where to start." Let's say you're launching the new competitor to Gatorade in Colombia. What's some advice to give to yourself?

Patricia:

Broaden your scope of support, find more people to help you make the journey more complete. It'll help you go faster if you plan better at the beginning. So for example, I told you that I had amazing vendor partners there, right? If I had thought about packaging partners and if I had thought about communication partners, if I had thought about tech partners, if I had thought about… If Google X had been around, if I had thought of them as a partner, I would have had to do less kindergarten work myself and inventing things.

Maybe I would have learned different, but it would have been so much easier and so much more professional, I think, and faster if I had gotten more help. That's one of the things that I've been learning more now is, ask for help sooner, ask for help sooner, not just in your products and your initiatives, ask for help sooner, get people on board. People are so willing to help. If you're very clear about what you want and even if you're not, they're just so willing to help. And there are so many people that know so much. That's my message to my younger self. And that's the message that I give to the people around me too.

Ryan:

I love that. I think there's something extremely wise about acknowledging what you don't know and being willing to take the help. I feel like society puts this pressure on us. My executive coach said this to me, once she goes, "Dude, you're not a fucking Jedi." And it was because it's like, "Right, exactly." So, we're all human beings with flaws and skills gap deficiencies and things we don't know. And I think that point is you acknowledging: that's okay. And guess what? You'd probably give today's version of yourself the same damn advice, because you joined Zappi two years ago and you have a friend sitting next to you who's worked in a tech company having chats with you. That probably makes that experience a little bit easier, you know?

Ryan:

So those of you listening, if you need help with anything, we'd love to help you. No agenda. Just reach out to us. We're happy to get on a call with you and share our experiences if it would be useful. Don't hesitate to get in touch. This is a bittersweet couple of sentences, Patricia, because we've had a lot of fun on this season. We are coming back for season three, sometime in September. The reason why I'm not giving you all a date is because Patricia and I got to figure out who we're talking to. We got to shoot the interviews. We've got to do the damn thing, but we'll be back.

And we will keep you posted as ever if there's somebody who you think we should be talking to, that's going to bring tangible tips around how to make consumer insights and consumer centricity a thing that scales in a business we want to talk to him. Hit us up on LinkedIn, subscribe to the podcast, email insideinsights@zappistore.com. Patricia, thank you for this amazing interview, but also for your incredible summaries. I heard you're making a summary of summaries.

Patricia:

Yes, I am.

Ryan:

We'll have an e-book coming out this summer that you'll have to catch, but that will be really useful for everybody. And we'd also be remiss if we didn't thank the team behind the scenes, Kelsey Sullivan, Emma Vazquez, Katie Sweet, Ariel Madway. Thank you ladies for doing all the hard work. The truth is those of you who listen, who aren't involved in a podcast, Patricia and I have the fun part of the job.

Patricia:

Oh yeah. They have the hard part.

Ryan:

We just talk to friends about cool stuff that's happening. And this podcast has been a ton of fun. It wouldn't be possible without you folks so thank you very much. And of course we would probably still do this podcast if we didn't have listeners, because we have fun. But for those of you who listen, thank you. We really do appreciate it. And we hope this has been a valuable use of your time. Patricia.

Patricia:

Thank you very much. It's been lovely.

Ryan:

It's been lovely.