Innovating on the edges: How to navigate AI and complex markets

Ryan Barry: Hi everybody and welcome to this episode of Inside Insights, a podcast powered by Zappi. I'm your host Ryan. You probably already know that because you've been listening for a while. And I am joined today by a very special guest, Deirdre van Zyl, the Head of Innovation Planning for Africa at Diageo.

Ryan: She's an innovator. She's pushing the boundaries of insights forward. And I'm very pleased to have Dee on the show today. Hi, Dee. 

Deirdre van Zyl: Hi Ryan, nice to be here. 

Ryan: It's great to be here. So excited to talk to you about a bunch of cool stuff.

Ryan: So Dee, I want to get started with your work and your passion. Tell everybody a little bit about what you do for innovation planning and, you know, what you do for a living, but why you're passionate about it and some of the things that get you up in the morning to do what you do. 

Deirdre: Thanks. So most of my career has been in insight and planning and I'd say about halfway through it, I started gravitating towards innovation because I love white space and I love ambiguity and trying to find the thing that no one can see right now, but it's out there somewhere.

Deirdre: And I think innovation allows you to do that. And in particular in Diageo, the opportunity came up to do that. For the African team there was also a combination of ensuring we get to the right insight, create brilliant innovation, but also making sure that we have the right partners in place, and have the right best practice in place.

Deirdre: Um, such a nice combination of both kind of setting ourselves up for the future as well as creating innovation, which is something I absolutely love as well. I think the thing that gets me up in the morning is I just love leaving things in a better place. So, cliche, but I love that. I'm saying that's why we have to make a dent in the universe.

Deirdre: Cause I think that is why we have, and if we can all leave the world in a better place, like what's not to like about that. And so that's the thing that always, always drives me. And why I've never really lost my passion for innovation. Cause I think there's always an opportunity to make things better, whether that's for the people around me.

Deirdre: For, for my colleagues, whether that's for the company, if that's for consumers. Yeah, and I think especially in our roles, like there's always room for improvement. There's always room to be better at something. 

Ryan: I love that mindset. I mean, because, innovation is sort of uncertain, but the way you're framing it is, I mean, I don't know how intentional it is, but by accident, one of the most consumer centric sentences ever, you're solving problems and making their life better.

Ryan: And that's the passion you're getting to innovate. And I think. In a time where we've had more changes of power in the world than I think ever in the last 100 years. It's a good message for everybody. What can you do to make things better? So innovation is an interesting construct to me because it's uncertain.

Ryan: You fail more, you succeed. And there's a lot of people working in insights jobs that do that for the predictability of the numbers, the predictability of their jobs. And so how do you grapple with data, consumer orientation, and hey, a lot of things we're going to do, we're going to fail. I mean, how do you keep yourself motivated to keep going when a lot of, you know, I don't know this, the recent stat Nielsen's charting out, but a lot of innovations fail.

Ryan: And so I guess, how do you embrace that failure and keep going? 

Deirdre: Yeah, we actually just came out of a meeting where we had that stat in the meeting. I think it's 60 percent fail by year two or start failing by year two anyway. 

Ryan: It's not a meeting about innovation. If the token Nielsen stat about how many innovations fails in it, it's a fact, actually, 

Deirdre: I think it comes back to that thing of being driven by a bigger purpose.

Deirdre: And, you know, I think some days there's an element of having to just pick yourself up again when things do fail and kind of, It's not been okay with it, but learning from it and almost seeing it as, when you look back in hindsight, what can I take from that?

Deirdre: And and there's for, I think sometimes we always want to be successful, but actually your biggest learning is sometimes in your failures or sometimes in your rough patches and your bad patches. And I think sometimes when you're really going through it, it's just keeping your chin up and then when you get to the other side, you realize that that experience has changed you for the better.

Deirdre: And yeah, I'm always, I'm probably quite a lot of an optimist and a glass half full kind of person. So I think for every experience you have, yes, there will be negatives, but I actually think there's always something to take out of it. But the other thing I think that really drives me is curiosity like how, and it probably, if we're going to use corporate language, that kind of growth mindset, but like what else is out there?

Deirdre: What else, what else can we do? What, like, how could have we done that differently? If I look at you know, I think that one of the things in terms of a better place, as well as it's in terms of developing people, I'm always curious about actually, if you gave someone the opportunity to thrive, what Like, where will they get to?

Deirdre: What will that look like? And I think it's that kind of mindset of, you don't know what's possible unless you try it. 

Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you said a lot of good things there. I want to start unpacking the first thing you said, like failure is inevitable. I have this philosophy, it's very similar to yours, or if we're going to fail, let's all learn from it so that the cost of the failure gets minimized.

Ryan: Um, but that takes, that takes a mindset, that takes leadership, that takes a reflection. Like one of the things I like to do is when we fail, do a retrospective so we can learn from it, like what could have been done differently. Do you have any other techniques you bring in to sort of, hey folks, we stepped in poo here, what are some things that we can do to learn from it?

Deirdre: Yeah, it's kind of just facing into it, being okay with being uncomfortable, I think is one of them. And in one of my first job actually, I was on this leadership program at a bank and we used to have to, after every project sit down and give each other feedback and, their feedback could be quite, um, brutal if I'm honest, you sat there face to face and you had these five people going, well, D this is what you did on the project.

Deirdre: But I think what that taught me really much is just first just be open to it, to listen to it, and then be in a place where like, okay, what am I going to do with it? And, you know, feedback's a gift. You can either take it, use it, or you can return it and go, thanks, but no thanks. So, I think I'm digressing slightly, but I think it all comes back to that thing of actually just facing the uncomfortableness, because it's not actually as bad as you think it's going to be, and having those uncomfortable conversations.

Deirdre: And that's, you know, that's come with age and, probably having a few of them and realizing, Nothing is actually that bad. 

Ryan: It's true I mean, I personally like, I like a healthy degree of conflict because it helps me work through something with somebody, but it's not natural for people.

Ryan: But If you ever have a constructive dialogue with someone, you always feel better afterwards. And it's the anxiety of needing to have it. That makes it hard. So for those of you who are like me, I hate that one of the things I do is if I need to have a tense conversation, I'll just write down the three or four points that I'm emotional about.

Ryan: I'm a pretty emotional dude. And that helps me stay grounded in that moment and also be quite receptive. But I think the point about feedback being a gift and learning is sort of existential, so companies can get better and keep trying new things. And that's how you innovate. If you learn with, if you learn from something you've already failed at, you're not going to make the same mistake.

Ryan: It's like, let's make a new mistake next time and then learn from that. 

Deirdre: Yeah, exactly. I think one of the things just like reflecting on what you're saying is, potentially as insight people we make, because we naturally empathize most of us, and most of us are there because we want to understand people.

Deirdre: We are more sensitive as well, which I, and I think managing that and being aware of the fact that actually that's just naturally who you are, and it is your gift to the business, actually, that sensitivity, because that allows you to be more empathetic. But at the same time, when you're in situations where that aren't comfortable Is practicing self care and just being like aware of this situation is making me feel uncomfortable and that's okay and it's okay to acknowledge like right now, you know, almost like that feedback I found offensive or whatever the case may be is like, it's okay to feel that way, whatever you're feeling that's okay.

Deirdre: And I think that's really important for us as insight people because we can. We probably are more sensitive in the business. 

Ryan: Yeah, I agree. Like, I almost describe what you're saying as like a flood. And sometimes you hear something or your boss asks you a question and you get this flood of like your heart starting to race or what have you.

Ryan: And I usually personally take that as a sign that I need to lean into it. A man who I respect very much once said to me, if you're feeling defensive about something, there's probably something for you to learn. But that doesn't mean you should ignore your feelings, right? I like what you said, like, I don't know what you do, but in those moments, a lot of times I've just built the muscle memory to say, I need to sleep on this.

Ryan: Or, I'm about to go for a walk. And then I do my best thinking there, but I mean, what are some techniques you use to give yourselves that space And then to show back up that you could maybe share with others. 

Deirdre: Yeah, I think, it's almost like we have a subconscious mind and I tend to chat to mind like it's like, Hey, what's going on here?

Deirdre: Like, you know, or I can feel what you're feeling right now, but let's chat about it later. And then in the evening, kind of just, to your point, let's just go for a walk and like what's going on in my head and just getting it out. Because I think that like almost the more you express it to yourself or almost like, oh, in this meeting, this person said this and it upset me 'cause of this. And, you know, and, and just kind of going through it, you release that emotion, but also you, you're in a place where it's like, was it actually that bad? 

Deirdre: So it, it sounds like we're a bit crazy, but at the same time, I think it's just listening to yourself and listening to what's going on. I also think if you love music, then listen to music, because music to me changes my mood quite easily. I know a lot of people say write it down.

Deirdre: I, I'm not one to write it down. I have to be honest. For the majority of us just recognize first acknowledging that I'm feeling something and then at some point just working it through for myself. 

Ryan: Yeah. And everybody's different, right? Like, I mean, a lot of times people have said, Oh, Ryan, can you give me public speaking advice?

Ryan: And I'm like, I'll tell you what I do, but you're different from me. So find what does for you. And I think the underpinning lesson here is. If you are triggered or flooded or you got some hard feedback or something stressing you out, it's always good to get away and think about it. And what I'm about to say doesn't contradict this, but it's attention.

Ryan: I think too often insights people because they're so empathetic aren't as assertive as they need to be in the moment to shepherd the customer forward. And that comes at odds with, hey, you might not be feeling like you want to react in a moment, but I'd like to see us be more assertive about the things we know, receive the feedback, and then if we have feedback coming to us, not react to it in the moment.

Ryan: It's okay to say, really good question. Let me get back to you tomorrow. It's like the biggest life hack anybody can have, but I do think by and large, like we, we have an opportunity and we'll talk more about why I think this, but. We have an opportunity to drive innovation and advertising and brand growth more than we ever had given the rise of sort of programmatic consumer data.

Ryan: So that requires us to lead as well. So that brings me to my next point. You said when you were talking at the beginning there, you love to see other people thrive. 

Ryan: How do you, like you've been in insights a long time, you have somebody on your team, you're trying to develop, what are some of your tips to give them the space?

Ryan: To fail to grow and ultimately to coach them. Like, how do you go about that in this modern sort of distributed paradigm that we seem to be working in? 

Deirdre: Yeah, I think I think it's getting to know everyone as an individual to your point of you can't tell someone how to do their job, but to observe and to spend time just

Deirdre: noticing what they're doing and as you learn them, start opening those doors. So maybe for example, like we're going into a meeting and I'm like, look, I'm going to take a backseat on this meeting. You step forward. I know it's not your natural instincts, but I'm here if you need me. And so there's an element of like, actually you lead and I'm behind you.

Deirdre: And I I had a boss that said this to me. Not so long ago. And this is kind of what I say to my team as well, is I've got your back. So you know, we are not gonna go in and I'm gonna contradict you in any, any way possible. We are not gonna go in, like if people are in a place where you're like, oh, I need some help here, then just go, I think there's d what do you think?

Deirdre: And we, we are in a partnership together. And I think it's also knowing what people's strengths and weaknesses are and getting that balance right, of being in a place where you put them in an environment where they use their strengths. So their confidence grows, their belief in their ability grows.

Deirdre: And it's almost like a 70-30 and then put them in environments where they also can start working on the stuff that they need to develop. But having that balance right is really important, I think, because if not, um, their confidence is going to be knocked. 

Ryan: That's, I mean, that's great. First of all, getting to know people, contracting with them, pre meeting through work streams. Those are simple things that Dee's saying, but they make a big impact.

Ryan: Everybody is different. And I think the other thing is that I got a phone call from a man who I really respect this weekend and he's feeling lost in his career. And I sort of instructed him to go away, however he goes away and does things and identifies what gives him energy and then triangulates that with things he's good at and then he'll find some answers.

Ryan: And, I think as insights as a function starts to evolve, you're going to have people who are naturally better with data architecture and infrastructure, people who are naturally better front-facing in the business, people who are somewhere in between. And that's okay. We have a guy that works at Zappi who always says you can't make zebras lions or lion zebras.

Ryan: And it's true, they're lions and zebras. They're different species. Or I guess where you're from in South Africa,there's baboons everywhere. Um, which is a whole separate story. If you go to South Africa, you think baboons are so cool. And then you ask a South African, what they think of baboons. And it's the equivalent

Ryan: if you live in the United States to how we feel about rats or London, how they feel about foxes, cause they, uh, they make a mess, uh, anyways, a little digression, but I thought that was the most fascinating thing in your country is like, yeah, you don't leave the windows open. 

Deirdre: Yeah. Yeah. The mess they make is unbelievable.

Ryan: Yeah, it is. But punchline, if you've not visited the great nation of South Africa, everybody, you should, cause it's stunning. But yeah, the baboons are everywhere. And if you leave your windows open, they come into your house and they rip your kitchen apart.

Ryan: And they're big, scary things. So don't leave your windows open. 

Deirdre: You don't want to be anywhere near a baboon actually. 

Ryan: So, all right. So I want to transition because. A lot of times people think, Oh, she works at Diageo, big brand, big budgets. Everything's easy. You're representing a major business in a quite challenging market.

Ryan: And everybody makes the mistake of saying Africa is Africa. Asia is Asia. And it's, it's a very naive thing to say because the continent of Africa is so diverse in so many ways. And that makes your job really hard, particularly because, let's be honest, the market research industry isn't exactly laser focused on making insights easy in Africa.

Ryan: So talk to me a little bit about what it's like to work on iconic brands in dozens of markets that have so many differences within themselves, let alone across each other, and how you navigate that to bring the business the right insights to make the right products for the markets you support. 

Deirdre: Yes, I mean, it's a good question.

Deirdre: Coming into this role, I've been at, you know, some of like really big global kind of FMCG companies, Mars, J&J, et cetera and I've probably, in global roles, if you named a country, I've probably done research there and I've probably had a chance to work with those countries .

Deirdre: And so when I came into the African role, I'm like, Oh, I can do this. But it probably has been the role where I've had to use the skill set that I've got over the years to its fullest because it's fascinating. The more you peeled the onion, the more you realized how much needed to be done in terms of just setting ourselves up for success as a starting point.

Deirdre: And to your point, it was almost as if the industry is in a place where the majority of research agencies aren't online, but you're working in an, in an environment where people expect you to be quick and expect you to be agile and expect you to be insightful. 

Deirdre: So yeah, I think the first thing was just to take a step back and work out exactly what the lay of the land was. And I just feel so fortunate that I came in at a time now where like it was on the, it is on the tipping edge of being able to do things better and being able to go online.

Deirdre: And I think it was one of the things I really appreciate about Zappi is the fact that you guys were willing to, you know, Work with us to work out exactly how we could do it and we had, it's not like we haven't made the challenges along the way, but it's that openness to actually solve the challenges and make sure that we find a way through it that I think is how you need to work in Africa.

Deirdre: It's like you can't expect to just turn on a survey and everything's going to work. And then knowing that this is a journey and not a destination. And actually every time we do something, we get better and better. And I think it fits a little bit of that, like with who I am. I'm okay with progress over perfection, because every time we get better, the results get better and the team is getting better at doing insight and our innovation is getting better off the back of it.

Deirdre: So yeah, I think for anyone who's in a place that wants to see something grow, Africa's the place to be because it is changing and it is evolving and I think it's exciting.

Deirdre: So yeah, it's, it has been very complex and dynamic, but very, very rewarding at the same time, because I do feel like every few months, when we look back, it's progress.

Ryan: It's a great way to put it. I like the way you frame this because I feel like folks, if you're listening and you work in a smaller company. Or you work in a big company that maybe mistakenly overly subscribes to. We've always done it this way here. The point of incrementality towards a vision towards a future outcome place, right?

Ryan: Like how do we get better every day is a mindset issue and you can take strides there. I think for those of you who are listening, have some empathy, right? Like the online research community almost ignored Africa and. Some of the countries aren't even represented in panels. And so we need to do mixed mode and we need to think about this in a world where even probably the most Western country in the continent has, I mean, how many different tribes, how many different languages, the, the amount of people from Nigeria and other countries that have immigrated.

Ryan: It's just a really fascinating paradigm, but I think if you're an insights person, it must just be wild because you're trying to represent a country or a population, but the amount of diversity within it is funny. I think I said this Dee when I first met you, when we launched our diversity council at Zappi, we have a big office in South Africa, by the way.

Ryan: And I remember a lot of our South African colleagues are laughing. They're like, you Americans and Brits have no idea about this topic. And it's true, actually. Um, but you know, that lesson of moving forward is important and also partnership. So. That brings me to my next thing I wanted to chat to you about.

Ryan: So we met, because we both share a passion for innovation and for doing things differently. So we have kind of a kindred spirit. Our other kindred spirit moment is we both know Michelle Gansle, which we're both BFFs from the job. Shout out to Michelle. So the future, the future of brands, the future of marketing, where products go and how innovation gets there.

Ryan: Talk to me about where you see the world going and some of the things you're driving with excitement within your business and sort of just within your own worldview to the extent you're comfortable sharing. But things are changing and I look at you as somebody who's driving a lot of the change, not just in the work we do, but elsewhere.

Ryan: So be really curious to see where you think the ball's going.

Deirdre: Yeah, I mean when you talk about the future, you can't not bring AI into it. But if anything, because of who I am, putting aside all the challenges of kind of hallucination, all of the biases that you see and everything else, like slowly, but surely, the industry will work its way through those kinds of things, right?

Deirdre: But also at the end of the day, the human is still in charge and it's the human, you know, we talk, say human in the loop, but I think it's the human in the loop, but the human should also be kind of shaping that loop and reshaping the outcome of what's coming out of AI.

Deirdre: But for me, the thing that I'm most excited about is the power it has to make us better at our jobs as insights people. And it will mean, it will be uncomfortable for some people because all of a sudden, something that you would have spent the days quite happily sitting at your desk analyzing is going to be analyzed in like, Seconds, minutes, et cetera.

Deirdre: And we've been, seeing that through some of the work that we've been doing through with you guys, all of a sudden, like actually very quickly, we can move from a concept to optimization in seconds kind of thing. But that's a good thing. And, you know, for me, because the cause in reality is it allows us to be, do all the things that the business is asking us for it to be more agile, to still be learning in agility.

Deirdre: Cause I think up until now, a lot of the times when people have been using agile as an excuse, not to get to a depth of learning. And actually it's combining is that tension of agile plus depth of learning. I think that AI is going to unlock things that we potentially haven't had in the past.

Deirdre: And that really excites me because it also frees up time as well to actually do the things that are important. And if I think about it, innovation is always under pressure to go quicker and go faster and stuff.

Deirdre: Often we're in a place where we could have gone left, but we went right because we hadn't had the time to properly understand what we had learned. So now I think it's going to allow us to make the agile decisions and the agile purpose with much more insight than what we ever haven't have done in the past.

Deirdre: I love the fact that there's going to be this integration of intelligence as well and connected intelligence. And there's going to be so much more ability to bring all the Brilliant data that we've collected together to get to the, to those rich and deep insights as well. So I think that's a big thing.

Deirdre: The other thing I think is having, piloted with your AI system as well. That really fascinated me. 

Deirdre: It's, it's amazing. It's helping us be more creative and I would never be in a place where I say AI should do it all. It's us and AI working in partnership as we would do with any agency, with any other human being.

Deirdre: It's all about collaboration and I think the more we collaborate, the better, the further we'll get together.

Ryan: I love what you said. I mean, I had this weird thought lately, which is when we started Zappi, We're one of the early pioneers of quick research. And I remember for many, many years being frustrated because quick research enabled a faster mousetrap to the same behaviors.

Ryan: It was very rare that our customers were learning because of the processes in which an agency briefs, a marketer who briefs an insights person who triggers a test and we do it faster. And obviously that's not, I'm speaking dramatically. It's not how everybody worked. The companies who learned improved.

Ryan: And what I've realized with the rise of AI and the insight space specifically is consumer data makes AI more valuable. And the insights department is the keeper of consumer data, consumer opinion, consumer empathy, whatever you want to call it. And so, I've said this a few times now, but it excites me. It strikes me that there's folks like you in insights roles all around the world who are actually leading super strategic AI engagements to focus on bringing better products to market, launching better brands, learning faster, et cetera.

Ryan: And that is very different from where we were when I remember Zappi became a thing. I remember when we first launched that, like, Oh, we can do insights quickly. The CMOs would go, yeah, just go sell it to Jessica who works on our insights team. And now it's at the center of a transformation and you're starting to see engagement and interest from different ways.

Ryan: And you and I talk about this a lot, but I think the reason that this is the case is because insights people are unbiased. So they're good at prompting. They're curious. So they're good at prompting. But more importantly than the talent, it's the data. The AI data is more useful when you put Consumer opinion, brand level, preference on legal, supply chain, sustainability, whatever.

Ryan: You can do a lot more. And I don't know, for the first time ever, I'm starting to see a flip where, Insights is at this table that they've, I never know where this freaking table is everybody wants to be at. We need a seat at the table. I don't even know where the table is. We're starting to drive conversations.

Ryan: And so the key thing is getting our data in a key place. And so, Fast forward a year and a half. We've got all the data in one place. Where do you see insights people spending their time when we've come to the other side of this, this vision that you're laying out. 

Deirdre: I think it's good. I think our roles are going to evolve and they might be uncomfortable for some who would naturally, have gravitated to insights in the past, but I think we're going to have to be a more strategic, going to be more comfortable with influencing, and more comfortable with leading the agenda and being okay with ambiguity. And shaping the future. You know, I've never been a fan of insights being a support function, but you know, if insights is a support function, it definitely is going to change.

Deirdre: And it's going to be in a place where it's going to be more around leadership, thought leadership is going to be in the place where we were able to challenge more. And I think, two fold one would be as like, and for the people who are, Almost more comfortable with data and rigor and things,

Deirdre: The interesting thing for me from what I've seen from the AI systems is that it does that for you. And so you're not going to be going into conversation not knowing because actually in reality the AI is going to actually give you all that robustness so that you can still talk from a very credible place.

Deirdre: You're going to go in there just not having spent eight, 10 hours doing the analysis to go in there in the first place. And you're going to go in there having interrogated the insights, the AI system or had a conversation with the AI system and the right prompts in order to go and have the right conversation.

Deirdre: So I think it's, it will evolve in the sense of, we're not going to be lost in data, but we'll still have this robustness to, we'll still have the robustness of the data to have the right conversations. 

Ryan: Yeah, I completely agree with you. It's like not lost in the data, but still having comfort in the robustness comes from the architecture of the stuff, right?

Ryan: Like the way you test ads, the way you test concepts, the way you measure brand and pack and all these things being collected consistently across your business, that way that you have that confidence, but I would say there's some people who enjoy spending their time on data architecture more than others.

Ryan: I just view those people having a great role in piecing together different data sets and prompting models. And so that other people can make it shine. You ever have this niggle with ad agencies where the creative pitches? And everybody's excited, you win the business. And then it's a junior planner who manages all the work. And it's the same thing if you work at a big market research firm, right? Like I used to work for one. You were sort of a victim to the quality of your account team. The account team leader is mostly in pitch meetings. So they're not actually in the work.

Ryan: And the reason that they're either mostly in pitches or not in the work is because the work is quite mundane. And then the mundane work results in someone working all night to do a presentation for you. And I think what Dee's articulating is a from to where the strategists, the thinkers, the people who understand culture are spending all their time thinking about what to do.

Ryan: Because the prompting of all the analysis is now a real time thing. It's not an overnight thing, it's a real time thing. And that's a fun world for me. I mean that, that motivates the crap out of me because I think people like you are uniquely positioned to shepherd brands in their relationship with culture.

Ryan: And that's what we're trying to do here.

Deirdre: Yeah, and I think if we take that into an innovation space, it's all of a sudden to be in a place where we are innovating on the edges and we are finding those unconscious compromises and I think it allows us to play more.

Deirdre: And to me, that's super exciting. Like what are the, what are the things going on on the edges that potentially AI can help us find and unlock? And what are the unconscious compromises that are going on that in a standard kind of traditional survey wouldn't come through because you know, we look at all the big numbers as opposed sitting underneath it.

Deirdre: My hope is that we're going to be in a place where actually we flip it a little bit and it's like yes those numbers are great but actually what's going on like on just on the kind of underneath the surface that we can start tapping into more that we not we don't ever find through traditional research.

Ryan: Yeah it's so true. Yeah and that comes from two ways. All your data is there so you can spend your primary money on new learnings. 

Deirdre: Yeah. 

Ryan: Also something, I think this is a couple years out but, I can't wait to see a world where we use text, voice, video instead of survey measures for a lot of stuff.

Ryan: And so that comes from like, know what you already know, ask deep questions you don't in a rich and engaging way. And that's I think existential because data quality is at the center of this. And the more fun it is for someone to give us their opinion, the better opinion they're going to share. And we swung real far, right?

Ryan: Like as an industry, we put all these phone surveys on the internet and we wonder why we have data quality issues 12 years later, or however many years later. 

Deirdre: And I think one of the things that, you know, when I was talking to Steve the other day, we were talking about one of the things I've always loved about the Zappi Platform is that actually your qual that's sitting behind the quant or your kind of prompts and things and verbatim is probably the richest that I've seen and he was saying he would love to change the entire thing into qualitative content.

Deirdre: I think that would be amazing, but it's also the ability to extract the things that are unusual as opposed to always looking for the commonalities. Because I think we always reported on the commonalities as opposed to the unusuals. 

Ryan: It's a good way to put it. You know, you talk about red ocean markets and there's all, I forget who said this, so I'm not going to quote them because I don't know who the hell said it, but when everybody zigs, you should zag. 

Ryan: Yeah, exactly. All right. Well, we are at time. Everybody Dee is badass. She just gave us an incredible wealth of knowledge on how to better show up on how to be a better leader. On the learnings you can draw from complex markets and how you can be driving innovation more by using technology and consumer data.

Ryan: So Dee, thank you. For everybody else, it was nice to have you on a chat with Dee and I, because we usually reflect this anyway. But, seriously, thank you so much for your time, and I'll talk to you soon. 

Deirdre: Thanks, Ryan. I really enjoyed it. 

Ryan: And we'll be back soon, everybody. Cheers.