How to stay agile in 2021

Ryan Barry:

Hi, everybody. Welcome to Inside Insights, a podcast powered by Zappi. I am joined, as always, by my cohost, Patricia Montesdeoca. Hi, Patricia.

Patricia Montesdeoca:

Hello, Ryan Barry.

Ryan:

How are you doing today?

Patricia:

How's it going today? I miss you. I love meeting you on this podcast, other than a normal workday.

Ryan:

I know. We got to go for a hike soon. Everything is great. For those of you who don't know me personally, I'm teaching my four-year-old daughter how to ski. So this weekend we had some major breakthroughs. She wanted to go by herself. And I only need one of my three kids to want to go skiing with me, so I'm really excited.

Patricia:

Those videos are to die for. My kids were watching them, because I was showing them, and they were like, "Mom, why didn’t you teach me to ski like that?" I'm like, "Because I don't know how to ski that way."

Ryan:

Right.

Patricia:

It's a simple thing. I can't teach you what I don't know.

Ryan:

Exactly. I'll teach you and your kids sometime. I've got all the patience, the dad ski outfit to match, and I even got little homegirl a bright pink helmet this weekend, so she was looking pretty fly on the slopes.

Patricia:

I might take you up on that offer, for sure.

Ryan:

I like it. I like it. So, we're here to talk about consumer insights, and I'm really excited about today's interview. We both know the person who's on today's interview well. In fact, you're the one who told me this, I didn't remember. He's the reason you work at Zappi.

Patricia:

I am so grateful to this man, for so many reasons. I was at Coke when I met all of you, right? But I met Zappi at one of the events. And then I started being a customer, but Joseph was my day-to-day Zappi guy. And he was just always so wonderful and so helpful. And he had the patience of the world for me, and nothing was stressful for him. And then, one day I saw an opening on LinkedIn. I'm like, "Zappi's hiring." And so I immediately sent a text, not even an email, a text on a Sunday afternoon to Joseph saying, "Joseph, there's an opening at Zappi. Do you think I would fit?" And he immediately called me. He had a horrible cold and he still called me on a Sunday afternoon. And of course, the rest is history.

Ryan:

I love it. So, my experience with Joseph, it goes way back. So, when we first started our business, we found great success in the Canadian market quickly. And Joseph was Mr. Insights in Canada and quickly befriended me and helped connect me to a lot of folks around the industry. I believe at that time he worked at Hershey's, and then he went to McDonald's. And I was looking for somebody to lead our business in Canada. And Joseph had become a friend of mine. He was a customer of ours, but more importantly, had become a friend of mine. And eventually he goes, "You know what?" in the most Joseph-way possible. He was like, "I think I want to do that." And so, it ended up working out, and Joseph was the first of what has now become a trend for us, the first kind of legacy or career corporate insights professional that we've brought in to help build our software company.

And Joseph taught us a lot. He helped us grow our business. He helped us grow empathy for the market, but also helped really tighten how we bring things to market. He was the first person who created what is now known as Zappi Certified Consultants, which is super cool. But what's great about Joseph is, he went back to where his heart was and his heart was to help brands grow and grow their connections with consumers. So today he's the insights lead for the Snacking Made Right USA initiative out of Mondelez International. And we're going to have an awesome conversation on how his experience in working with software has made him a better corporate research person. You're going to love this interview, everybody. Patricia, should we just get into it?

Patricia:

He's so wonderful. Let's do it.

Ryan:

Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, children of all ages, thank you for tuning into this episode of Inside Insights powered by Zappi. Today I'm joined by a close friend of mine, former colleague, and current customer Joseph Chen. Joseph, hello, my friend.

Joseph Chen:

Hi, nice to hear your voice now Ryan.

Ryan:

I'd love to be in Toronto with you having dinner and eating good food, but we'll do that some other time, Joseph.

Joseph:

Yeah, definitely.

Ryan:

All right, so tell the listeners, Joseph, about your role and what you're working on these days.

Joseph:

Yeah, so I'm currently leading the Canadian consumer insights team and on the side I also work on our U.S. wellbeing strategy. I have a dual job right now.

Ryan:

Two hats, two hats.

Joseph:

Yeah, two hats, yeah. Yes.

Ryan:

You're not alone. I think in a unique time we live in both with the economic and the political and the social climate, I think everybody's being asked to do more with less. So we'll have to get into how you're coping with that later. Joseph, I've had the pleasure of knowing you for years. You've worked in a lot of big CPG environments. You've worked in one very big market research company. You spent some time at Zappi, but I never really got to ask you this question. Why did you get into insights in the first place? What is it about Insights that drew you to the field? I know you're only like 30 years old now so at the beginning of your young career, what got you there?

Joseph:

I think I always get really passionate about understanding people and understanding why people do certain things. I think it all started when I was in undergrad, I got into marketing and took a course in consumer behavior, then I just got really into it where I just want to learn a bit more. That's why I got my Master’s in consumer studies, to really further the understanding about why people do certain things and also getting into more a cultural anthropology piece, as well. So all these sort of different elements like as you thought about getting into doing a PhD in the same field, but then I don't know if you remember…

Then I met with Bill Ratcliff, he was sort of the head of New Time in Canada. Was just chatting with him and then he got me into the industry and that's how I pivoted my thinking, right into the industry instead of staying in academia. For people who actually thought about doing a PhD, they always say that you know what, I can always come back to further your education, but I think, I would say like 90% of the time, once people get into the industry, they stay. 

Ryan:

It's funny you say that. Most people that work in consumer insights tell the same token joke of oh everybody got into the industry by accident. You didn't. It was intentional and I'm actually somebody who also didn't. I studied advertising and worked in planning and I liked the strategy side, so for different reasons than you.

Joseph:

Yeah.

Ryan:

But also I love people. To me, this industry was like made for me. Maybe we were two people that were actually intentional about something. The point you make, really interesting for people, a lot of people younger in their career might be listening to this. Similar to you, I always thought I'd go back and get an MBA and the truth is I went and built a startup and I think it's probably better than an MBA. In your case, you've gone through a career journey and haven't felt the need to go back to academia. Say a little more about that, you think it's easy for people to say, “Oh, I'll go back to it.” But oftentimes the pull of the job and the career keeps you there. I'd love to hear some pros and cons from your perspective about that.

Joseph:

Yeah, no, I think partly it's also because when you are being challenged, I think it also keeps you excited and that's the case for me. Throughout my career, I always feel like I'm getting challenged in different ways and I'm always learning something new, regardless if it's different brands or different category, like different people you work with. I always feel constantly meeting and also working with great people and that keeps me really excited and motivated. So academia I could see myself maybe when I think about retirement or things like that, because as I went through, when I did my Master’s, I don't know if the type of exposure will be the same compared to the industry, right?

The type of the skills that you're able to build and then the people that you're meeting. I met so many amazing people, including yourself, right? You really broaden your thinking in different ways so I don't know if I will get similar type of experience if I continue in academia. I don't know because I haven't been there, but from what I'm hearing from other people, I don't think so.

Ryan:

Yeah, it is interesting right? The experiences you get, the people that you work with, it really does broaden your brain. It sounds like maybe you find that very intellectually stimulating. I believe that there's magic in people that work in academia and the work that they do, but it is a tension point, particularly in a time, we're doing this interview and we're both in our houses. You can buy the books, you can take virtual classes, you have an opportunity to educate yourself without going to a campus and doing that for four years. It's a unique time. All right.

Joseph:

Yeah, for sure.

Ryan:

Alright. Insights, what is the job of an Insights Manager in 2021? What does a successful insights manager look like? Where do they spend their time? What are they worrying about and how do they spend their time? I'd love to hear you unpack that. I think you're a very successful insights lead, so I want to hear from you. I think that will be very valuable for our listeners.

Joseph:

That's a great question, Ryan. I think a successful insights manager today, how to be a strategic business partner and it's more important now than ever, just because there's so many… you might be answering a business question. It might be your marketing partners might be relying on you to uncover an answer to a challenge that they're going through. But there's so many tools and solutions out there, like what Zappi offers, it's totally automated. You don't even need to have a research background, you can run the study very successfully, right? I think as an insight person, your market doesn't really need you, unless you have the level of experience and perspective that you can share and you really demonstrate that, in terms of the value-add that you can bring.

So not just research, but mostly strategic thinking, help them really plan, work with them on the strategy, shaping them, that they really rely on you, on your expertise. I think that’s what the insight managers should be today, because there's just so many tools out there that people can just run a research, they can run a survey without a research expert to do it for them, right? I think you have to move on to that more strategic level to be a successful insight person in the organization.

Ryan:

So with the onslaught of expertise being put into technology, whether it's Zappi or some of the cool stuff that's happening in the qualitative space or other vendors, your point is, it takes a lot of the expertise needed to actually write a survey, away from an insights manager. 

Do you believe the insights managers should be giving the tools to marketing and then having discussions with them? Or do you believe that the insights managers should still do the work, but spend the balance of their time or the majority of their time in strategy meetings? Actually saying, “Hey, this is what I've learned. This is what I've curated across multiple touch points with the consumer and that's why I believe this is true.” Say a little more about that, because I think you've got insights managers on the corporate side who used to be procurement managers. You've got some that are classically trained researchers, and then you've got those that are MBAs that have fallen into the space. I'd love to hear you unpack that a little bit, Joseph.

Joseph:

Yeah, for sure. I do think the latter, in terms of what you said is exactly right. I think the insight manager today, because you're the expert, right? It's just a tool, but you're the expert that you can actually, you have access to all this different type of data that's out there. I think you should be able to curate and also come up with a perspective and share that with a team with a point of view and recommendation. I do think that the insight manager today, should be very holistic in a way, in terms of knowing where to find, where you can actually gather the information to put an overall perspective. Because no one would know more about where the information can come from then you, so I think that it's a very critical and also a competitive advantage that you have as an insight person. You have access to so much and you're the only person who can actually come forward with and guide a team to a decision based on everything that you know.

Ryan:

Right. You're curating all of those different touch points. What's interesting is, you're talking a lot about being a strategic partner, but I also do know you, I know you're in the systems, you're in the tech platforms, you're doing a lot of the work. I guess, how do you find that balance though in your day between, and I know we're going to come on to how you use software to drive engagement, but talk a little about that, because you're curating, you're being strategic, but there's probably a time this week where you're going to run a claims test or do some research yourself, right? How do you balance that from a prioritization and also professional development standpoint?

Joseph:

I do think that it's a conversation. When you work closely with your team and when you have a trust and credibility that you have built with your team over the years, I think that the ongoing conversation and dialogue really help in terms of prioritization. Also, know what value are you providing to the organization? I think that a combination of all these different elements really help in terms of how you work with the team.

Ryan:

That is incumbent upon, I know what you're saying, but I think just to make it really explicit, you're confident in having discussions with your internal stakeholders of what the priorities are and where you're spending time. That discipline is allowing them to be bought into what you're doing, it sounds like, but also gives you some clarity of, okay, am I delivering value and is my time being spent in the right places? That's pretty cool. 

All right. We're buds, we were talking a couple of weeks ago, which actually led to us doing this interview. You worked in, well you worked at a bunch of companies, I'll let you ramble off the list pre and post this event. You then called me, I vividly remember this. You called me, I think it was almost four years ago now and you said, Hey, I know you're struggling to find somebody in Canada, why don't I do it? At that time you were a customer of mine. You spent a couple of years at Zappi, we had a lot of fun, had a lot of fun. You traveled the world, the whole thing. Obviously your passion brought you back to corporate insights, but you said something to me and it wasn't a “yay Zappi” thing. It was, I learned so much in working in technology that has made me a better corporate insights person.

I want you to say some words on this, because I think people either get on a supplier sidetrack or a corporate track. And the truth is there's learnings on both sides of that fence that make us better. Personally, I spend a lot of time talking to corporate insights people because I've never been one. I'm an entrepreneur, I like to work at Zappi, the whole thing, but I do get so much insight from that. But I want you to unpack, so you spent two years working in a software company that happens to sell research. What are some of the key insights you had, Joseph, and how has it shaped how you show up today differently in your corporate insights job?

Joseph:

Yeah, for sure. I have to tell you the time that I spent at Zappi, it actually made me a much stronger insight person. I also think that the experience that I had at Zappi, working in business development or sales, it's one of the best work experience that I ever had in my career. I just learned so much and it made me a better person as I was dealing with people in general, because when you're in insights, sometimes you don't see, because you're buying stuff, right? People always say they cater to your needs and things like that.

But when you're on the other side, you really understand in terms of the challenge that you have to face, right? You have to be prepared to have a very unsatisfied client and how do you navigate that? I think it makes you think about how you deal with people in a much better way. And also how critical relationships are. 

Then the other piece is also thinking about, we've been using this term quite a bit at the company, progress over perfection. I think just because of what Zappi offers and also what clients, why they're thinking about Zappi or any agile platform is because they want to be more agile. I think that it's been a corporate mandate in many organizations. Everyone had that mentality and to be able to just get things done and then gets you an end result without worrying, being a hundred percent perfect.

Then that really helped myself and also I think it also helped with people around me to really think about, at the end of the day, we just need to make a decision. I think, there's a thousand different ways you can get there, but at the end of the day, you just need to make a decision. No one really cares so much in terms of how you get there, but you just need to get there. I think that really also helped me in terms of how I pivot and also how I do my day to day job and how I deal with people on an ongoing basis so that was really, really valuable.

Ryan:

It's fascinating to me because you speak a lot about relationships and then also you want to move fast, stakeholder, I want to move fast too, but it takes some give and take. So to me, it reads like it's really manifested in your internal stakeholder relationships, but also in how you work with suppliers. With the stakeholders, how has, so you use a lot of software to do your job. How are you using software to save yourself time, which is different from how you might have worked in the past? I know you've got some really cool examples of how you're running projects, but give the listeners some insight here. Let's just say I'm a brand manager and I send you a brief to test a bunch of positioning statements or ideas or whatever. How does your actual engagement with those people change now today, based on what you just shared as insights you learned on the software side?

Joseph:

Yeah, a hundred percent. I have really pivot in terms of how I work with the team. We are now running most of the, any so-called research projects, I would say probably like over 60% are really agile focus. We have really scaled down in terms of, yeah, we really scaled down in terms of the type of work that we do from sort of big project. Unless it's really big strategic project, we use a full service vendor, but the way how I run projects now, and also because everything is so, working through Zappi is so easy. I want the marketers who really understand how things get done and also I want them to save time.

Because before in the past, it's like, okay, here's the questionnaire, take a look. Do you have any feedback? Back and forth. It could be like a day, two days that you waste just be communicating email back and forth, just going through questionnaire feedback, or even if you're thinking about what input that you need from the team from stimulus standpoint. There could be like a week just back and forth doing that. Ryan, what I do now, I actually just set up a time, sometime like 30 minutes with a team. I tell them in advance, Hey, if we want to run a creative test, let's make sure we have all these things ready, right? I just tell them specifically what they need to prepare. We have a 30 minute huddle and we run the study on Zappi together, so no more back and forth.

We bounce off ideas, we brainstorm together. Okay, well, what attribute we want to put in? Let's talk through it. Let's go through it. We're all on the same page. I do that, not just for marketers, for all the cross-functional teams. Before it would be like, okay, marketers will give their input. Let's send an email to the R&D teams to see what input they have? No. Now it's, we all like gather in this 30 minutes call, we brainstorm, we go through the project together, the inputs. It takes, honestly, we'd set up for 30 minutes, but it's like 20 minutes discussion and then we're in field.

The team, they found this so valuable in terms of how quick and what's so amazing is then next day I was able to send them an email, say, “Hey, this is what are the top learning and this is what my recommendation is. This is how it should be moving things forward.” Everything gets done in two, three days. It's unbelievable, just in terms of the speed that we're able to use or make decision. It has really transformed in terms of how we run studies now.

Ryan:

I find this extremely motivating if I'm honest with you because of what I do for a living, but the truth is what you've done there, is you've cut out paperwork. You've cut out briefs. You've cut out nonsensical kickoff calls with suppliers and then the internal kickoff call with the stakeholder. You're getting them excited about the process. They're doing most of the work, is the truth, right? They're doing the thinking with you. You're getting engagement on the phone. The thing that you threw in there at the end is awesome. I didn't hear you talk about writing PowerPoint decks for those result readouts, Joseph, so you're not doing readouts.

Joseph:

No, we're not doing readouts.

Ryan:

When you talk about, what did you learn in software being about progress over perfection in relationships and what a key insights manager need for tomorrow is to be a business partner. For everybody who's listening, that's how you do it. Joseph's not just telling you what you should do, that's how you should do it. Cause I was wondering at the beginning of the conversation, how do you reconcile the fact that you got to do work and run projects, but you also have to do it, but this is how. They're coming along for the ride with you. If there's nothing else people take away from this interview, Joseph, this is profound insight for people of how to actually use software. But to your point, that's not how you worked when you were at McDonald's or Hershey's, it was very different. That from/to for you is night and day because it would have been a kickoff call, a vendor, a bunch of emails and you think of the time you're spending not connecting Mondelez to its consumers, so kudos to you, my friend.

Joseph:

Yeah. Something I didn't mention, it's also that everyone is so resource constrained now. I mean, all the corporate insights, everyone is getting squeezed, in terms of their resource or budget and things like that. You really have to do things different, you cannot do the same thing that you used to do five to ten years ago. The industry has really evolved so you really have to transform the way you do things and also be very open and collaborative with a team. I think that's really, really important.

Ryan:

Joseph, I want to stay here for a minute. There's a lot of people that have self-identified into the consumer insight space and their personality type is that of a very smart, a very intellectual, a very inquisitive person, but equally a shy person. Somebody who doesn't want to fight to get their voice heard and otherwise just going to be bullish. Marketers, on the other hand, might be a bit different, right? Might be a bit more comfortable riffing. Can you give some practical advice on how to approach a conversation with a stakeholder to get at, we've got to do it differently?

I'm sure you have some examples, but how do you approach… because I imagine it's an intimidating conversation and you're coaching people on your team to have these. But to get to that dream you just told me, which has made my day — no kickoff calls, no decks, they're part of the discussion and the readout with you, they're psyched about it as a result. It didn't just happen, Joseph, right? You had to have some conversations. How do you reframe the discussion with stakeholders, who are used to: kickoff call, full service vendor, BASES template, the whole thing, right? How do you actually reframe that expectation? Because it's huge.

Joseph:

Yeah. It's actually quite an exciting journey, just because first of all, the solution, the tool is very exciting. When I can tell my partner that, “Hey, we're just going to huddle for a 20 minute, we're going to get a study launched,” they're like, “what?” I don't think there's a lot of selling I have to do, I think the tool sells itself, because I know when people know that you can actually launch a study in 20 minutes. That itself, it's like their sold, right? Right there. Then when they see that they get the results the next day, just over email, that's all they need to know. Honestly, it's like, what do I need to do? Right. The marketers, all they need to know is, tell me what I need to do, because they just rely on your expertise. When you can actually do that, that quick and fast and simple, yeah. Honestly, I don't even have to sell anything. I just set up the meeting and I'm like, let's just do what, yeah.

Ryan:

It's really interesting because I think people are very scared of change and change is all around us. It's actually one of the key reasons, Babita and I started this podcast, is to talk about navigating it. But you're leading with the benefit and the benefit of: I can get you connected to consumers tomorrow, you just got to join a call with me and be part of the party, was actually all you needed to do. I can't tell you how many insights people struggle with, “yeah, but they've always done it this way,” or “yes, but they expect this score or yes, but they expect this deck.” And you're one of a dozen people who I've spoken to, who you led with the benefit and you delivered what they needed, not what they asked for. And there's a difference. There's a difference. This is what the consumers tell us. This is what I think we should do. Let me know if you want to riff is very, very different, Joseph, to a perfectly designed 90-slide deck, that they read one slide of.

Joseph:

It's funny, I don't even know who, with the market that… at least at Mondelez, they just want a one pager. I think people all evolved into having a simple deck. They don't need to, they just want you to tell them what are the key insights? What's your recommendation. That's all they need. I find and maybe that's partly because maybe as a company we'll move into that agile over… progress over perfection type of mentality. Obviously, I benefit a lot from that by working at Zappi. But I think because of that, I think people are loosening up. They are much more open to new ideas and I do think that it's going to be like that is just going to evolve across all the different organizations, that mentality, that type of thinking. I really do hope so. It just makes the insight people, their job even easier. If the rest of the insight folks are on board with this type of approach, yeah.

Ryan:

Yeah, I think the operative, if the rest of the insights team are on board, it's easy. But onboard is recognizing there's a change and getting a surf board and going down the tide, not saying, can I get 1980s delivered tomorrow? I think there is a reframe and some people need to realize that there's a change that's needed. You're so positive though. You're making my day here. 

All right. Let's unpack a buzzword. Agile research, what a buzzword. It means a lot of things to a lot of people, but what does it mean to you?

Joseph:

I think agile, for me, it's really about being flexible. It's not just fast, cost effective, but I do think that it's something that is more flexible and then you can get the learning that you want to get. All the fast and cheap, all those elements that I just talk about, but in a more flexible way.

Ryan:

So you can actually respond. I think that, to me, it's a mindset. It's what's the viable insight you need to inform the next assumption, to advance the conversation. And sometimes that means going deep and sometimes that means going shallow and because you see it, everybody uses the word. If you're a corporate insight's person who doesn't have the benefit of having worked at a quote unquote, agile company, like Joseph, you must be inundated with it because there's agile companies that are survey programming platforms. There's agile companies like Zappi that answer a question. There's qual where you can get 15 people in a room. There's intercepts on paywalls, you can actually have IDI's with people. All of those things, to your point, they deliver on speed and cost due to their uses of technology. They offer flexibility for the job that you're using and they all have their place. But it's important to unpack the buzzword because I think a lot of people are just like, yeah, I know what that means, but it means a lot of different things, so that's really cool

Joseph:

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Ryan:

All right. Big predictions for the consumer insights industry in the year 2021, what are some big things you see happening, Joseph?

Joseph:

I do think that the automation will definitely be the norm moving forward, so I think that is the key expectation. I do think that, in terms of how we do qualitative research, the virtual, the mobile. I think mobile will also be the future, in terms of how research is getting done. I think there's so many solutions out there are in that space. I think virtual will be the new norm for qualitative, because it's funny, the last seven months, getting that deeper consumer insight has diminished, just because we moved to a virtual environment. I should say, it's actually got richer just because we're able to use all the different types of exercise to get a more deeper learning from consumers.

I do think that virtual is going to be the new norm moving forward, as well. I think there will be more interest on, obviously there's the AI or these artificial intelligence, things like that. But I do think that the text intellects, it's actually an interesting space and I think Zappi's also dabbling into that. I do think that there's so much information coming up for researchers. I do think that the text intellects would be the way that we can uncover and also be able to get a faster, deeper consumer understanding. I think that will be another area that is going to be really fascinating. 

Ryan:

I love it. I love it. I haven't started writing mine down yet, but I always do them every year. Sometimes I get them wrong, sometimes I get them right. Sometimes I'm over-optimistic so we'll see. I agree, I think I've seen the rise of virtual qual happening this year. There's some companies that are experiencing like thousand percent growth because they can do focus groups digitally, novel concept. You don't have to go to a facility and actually connect with people. Yeah, text analytics space, I think is going to be really interesting to watch. I wouldn't say we're doing a ton. We're just trying to make the open ends people get more value so there's something there. 

All right, Joseph, you've said a lot. Anybody who's in insights that has listened to this, is a better insights pro having listened to it. I really want to thank you. If people want to get at you, where's the best place, LinkedIn, Twitter, where should people get in touch with you to follow you up?

Joseph:

Yeah, I think LinkedIn will be the best way. Yeah, for sure.

Ryan:

Awesome. And if you're going to give Joseph an unsolicited sales email, make it valuable for the guy, he's busy. He just told you how busy he is. Joseph, my friend, I can't wait to see you, can't wait to see Robert. We got to get up to Toronto and have some good dinner and some wine soon, but until then, I wish you nothing but the best.

Joseph:

Yeah, thanks Ryan, thanks for having me.

Ryan:

It's a pleasure, my friend, take it easy.

Ryan:

That was awesome. Joseph as always brought the heat and brought a lot of insights. Patricia, I'd be super curious to know what your key takeaways were and what you thought of the interview.

Patricia:

It was so much fun talking to Joseph. First, of course, as I said earlier, he was my Zappi person, then as a coworker. And now, he uses Zappi, so I get to have the role reversal with him. But just listening to him riff on insights, it's just such a pleasure. He's so elegant. He's so Zen. He makes my heartbeat stabilize. I think I'm going to do Joseph talks instead of maybe meditation. He's a master at getting shit done and he accomplishes so much without dropping the quality. I want to do that. Everybody wants to do that, but there's a few things that I want us to highlight from what he said.

First thing is, he repeats four really, really powerful words. And the themes and words that chose are what his mantras are. He talks about exciting. This is exciting. That was exciting. I was excited. He talks about simplicity. He talks about partnership: him being the partner, him partnering with others, him partnering with suppliers. He talks about challenge. Challenge is a good thing. Challenge is something that motivates him. 

And in general, these are the questions that he answered for us. He said, as an experienced insights professional, how does he keeps things fresh? Well, he does exactly what I said, by being challenged, by permanently learning new things, working with great people that keep him motivated. An example of how he thinks is he learned about relationships with human beings while working in a tech company. Now, if you can do that, that's amazing, right?

Another question that he answered that was huge, how does he define the strategic business partner and the day-to-day? Not just the buzzword, but the day-to-day. For him, it means helping think through and uncovering answers to important business challenges. In essence, he said it means adding value. Now, if that doesn't summarize a very large buzzword, nothing does.

A third one, what exactly does agile insight mean to him? You were brilliant, Ryan, when you said, "Let's just unpack this. What does it mean to you?" And he was like, "Yeah, well, it's just a flexible learning process, adaptable to whatever the need is." For him, understanding the real question and finding the best path to solution, that's what agile means to him. Again, simple, sweet, to the point and gold.

Number four, how does he actually make change happen? He has defined this disclosure as disclosure of the insights process. He talks about it as if it was the most simple thing, but basically what he did is he showed people the kitchen, the inner workings. And he invited his business partners to address the issues together almost in real time. He makes them part of the problem and of the solution. So together they solve the company's problems. And he says things like, "I didn't even have to sell anything. I just set up the meeting. It's kind of exciting. And it makes all of our jobs easier." Those are not my quotes. Those are pure Joseph gold quotes.

Number five, how does he get it all done in the day-to-day? Because that was a great question you asked him. We all want to do things. We all have intentions to do things, but he actually gets it all done. And he talks about progress over perfection. That's his mentality. He knows that everybody's time-crunched. He is time-crunched. All his team is time-crunched. So what does he do? He brings all the relevant people together at the same table, at the same time. He tells him beforehand what's expected from them. He focuses on the end result of the meeting. In the insights case, it's launching. And then he follows up ASAP with key results via email, not as you said very pointedly, Ryan, 90-page reports. But he says, "It's a simple email. Top line, this is the way it is."

You know what? In essence, he perfectly brings to life Picasso's lesson in abstraction. I don't know if you guys are aware, and we can share the link, in his lessons in abstraction, but he takes complex subjects, simplifies them down to their major aspects. He thinks that it's not about seeing more detail, but about seeing less, seeing the importance stuff, seeing the important detail, and that way you can relate to the majority of answers. He's a master.

Ryan:

He is a master. I love how he's breaking down some of the most complicated processes and problems that people face, was just like, "Yeah. I just make moves every day, and I just talk to people and I get them around the table and I make it fun,” as you say. What strikes me so well is that this experience that he's gotten has exponentially increased his impact that he’s made. And I think so many insights people struggle with, "Okay, I want to change, but I can't because of my surroundings." And I think there's a lot of lessons that you've done a really nice job of recapping in what Joseph said, in really tangibly changing your environment around you because your marketing stakeholders, your innovation stakeholders, your brand stakeholders, they want to be learning from consumers, not getting test scores back. It's our job as an insights trade to actually teach them how to get that result.

Patricia:

And he faces stress. Did you notice how many times he said, "It's just...", Or, "It's just...", Or, "I just...", making things seem so simple and so natural for him. So I think that if I had one lesson to learn from this chat, not just with my whole entire relationship and friendship with Joseph, but this particular chat is, slow down. Look at the big picture, not more, but less. What's the important part? And take it easy. Make it fun. Make it challenging. Get shit done.

Ryan:

Get shit done. I love it. Joseph, thank you. You're an absolute legend. And Patricia, thank you for, as always, a brilliant recap. Next... In two weeks, not next week... Kelsey is going to kill me because I'm going to keep signing them up for an episode every week. But next episode, we're going to be talking to Frank Santiago, actually another person Patricia and I have a lot of love for, even though he's a Yankee fan. I'll forgive him.

Patricia:

He's a homie. What are you talking about?

Ryan:

Frank is my homie. He actually, I spoke to him on Friday about, nothing to do with work, and I enjoyed it. He made my day. He called me out of the blue. Frank is a wonderful man, and I've not met anybody across the 400 or so insights departments that I know, who knows more about doing knowledge management right than Frank Santiago.

So, you will not want to miss this episode because Frank's going to give you some really, really unfair secrets that he's learned through a lot of blood, sweat, and tears over the years, through his work of setting up a world-class instance of knowledge management for Colgate-Palmolive. I'm really excited to bring this conversation to you.

If you are somebody who's making moves inside your agency, inside your brand, that are helping you learn more, get closer with consumers, use technology to your advantage, to create real empathy and growth opportunities for your company, Patricia and I want to talk to you. You can email us at insideinsights@zappistore.com or hit either of us up on LinkedIn or our emails. Our emails are our first name, dot our last name@zappistore.com. We'd love to hear from you. If you enjoyed this episode, please give us a rating and subscribe. It helps us reach more people and help more people. But for now, thank you for tuning in. Patricia, thank you, my friend.

Patricia:

Thank you, amigo.