How to elevate your insights with empathy

Ryan Barry:

Hello guys, gals and gender-neutral pals. Welcome to this episode of Inside Insights, a podcast powered by Zappi. My name is Ryan and I'm your host, and I'm joined as always by my co-host, Patricia Montesdeoca and our producer Kelsey Sullivan. Hello ladies, and good day.

Patricia Montesdoeca:

Hello. How you doing?

Ryan:

Oh, I'm doing, it's Friday. It's St. Patrick's Day, and your boy needs a beer. I usually don't celebrate St. Patrick's Day because I'm Irish all year, but I need a beer today.

Patricia:

I already started. I am almost through my first vodka tonic.

Ryan:

Oh, there you go. Proud of you. Well, I hope you were all safe by the time you watch this and you didn't drink too much beer on St. Patrick's Day, but that you had a lot of fun with good friends. 

I just had a lot of fun with a good friend Rob Volpe doing this episode. He is somebody who I've actually only become personally connected with recently. I have watched him public speak a bunch of times. I think he's wonderful. He's so profound, so insightful, very motivating, and actually he grabbed my arm in Miami and said, "Hey dude, when are you going to get me on your podcast?" I was like, "as soon as you can, my man." So this is as soon as he can. Rob and I had a really, really good discussion about empathy, how to create better empathy, how to better understand culture and to use your intuition, and how that can actually help the insights industry evolve.

Rob is the CEO of Ignite 360, as well as the author of a wonderful book called, Tell Me More About That, which you can purchase anywhere where books are sold. This is what it looks like if you want to buy one. It's a wonderful book, and he's also doing a lot of motivational and public speaking, teaching teams how to do empathy inter-department. And we at Zappi are going to be hiring him to come in and talk to us about empathy. So I'm very, very excited about that. So ladies, let's go talk to Rob.

Patricia:

Go for it.

[Music transition to interview]

Ryan Barry:

Excited to be here with Rob Volpe, the CEO of Ignite 360, and the author of Tell Me More About That. Hi, Rob.

Rob Volpe:

Ryan, it's so good to be here. Thanks for having me on.

Ryan:

It's amazing to have you on. And everybody listening, I have to tell you, we just spent 30 minutes fanboying about Peloton, so we almost ran out of time to do our episode, but it was a really wonderful chat, and that's a wonderful community. So we'll do a quick Peloton fanboy before we have our chat. Rob, favorite Peloton instructor? Go.

Rob:

Christine D'Ercole.

Ryan:

Not even a hesitation.

Rob:

Christine D'Ercole for the bike, and then I just got the rower, and Ash Pryor is awesome on the bike, she's amazing. 22 maybe, used to row competitively at Ohio, I think-

Ryan:

Wow.

Rob:

And as a connection into the insights community, Cynthia Harris of 8:m28 Marketing. She is her mentor. So when I ride with her I'm like, "Ooh, Cynthia knows her." And it's great. They're great.

Ryan:

All right, so mine are, on the bike, Alex Toussaint, and I like to do the boot camps and I'm a Jess Sims fan. But as we were saying, that is the power of community, that two grown men spent 30 minutes talking about their spin bikes in their basement and the passion we have for it. And if you could build that as a brand, you've done something right. I guess they just got to get the unit economics of the whole business stuff to work for them, but we're rooting for them.

Rob:

Yeah, they're getting there. They've made some good changes it seems. Yes. And I thank God there's Tunde and Ally. I saw Ally Love in person last summer actually. I'm going to keep this short, NGLCC's annual convention, National Gala Lesbian Chamber of Commerce, we're a certified LGBT company, and Ally was a guest speaker. 

And the night before, my husband and I were out at dinner, and Ally and her then boyfriend or husband, I think she'd just gotten married, came into the restaurant at the Bellagio, and sat three tables away. It's like, "Oh my God, do I go up and say..." My parents taught me years and years ago, or put it into my head, do you go up to a celebrity when you see them in person or do you just appreciate that they're there? And I go back and forth on whether to approach and what to say and the whole bit, so in that case I did not, I did see Ally talk on stage to our group the next day, but it was just fun to see her live and in person and everything.

Ryan:

I'm with you on whether you say hi or not. I have a friend who played in the NFL and I have great empathy for people in the public eye. This is an interesting story, but we went to a basketball game, and he was at a urinal and some dude came up and asked him for his autograph, and he was like, "Hey man, I'm peeing." Ever since then I've been like, "You know what? Let these people live." I just felt quite bad for him.

Rob:

It is that thing of what are they in the middle of doing, and is this a conducive moment? I posted on LinkedIn and Instagram a couple months ago, and somebody recognized me in the airport that's in the industry that I hadn't met, we're connected on social but had not met in person, and she called out my name and it was like, "Oh my gosh." And it was awesome to chat. We took a photo and everything. I'm me, I'm the empathy activist, I'm not going to get stopped at a urinal most likely.

Ryan:

It was a good time to do that.

Rob:

And I don't know, at some point when that does happen, I'll know that I've reached a certain level of status or something, but it's like let people have their life, or I always want to go up to them and just let them know if they've really had a positive impact on my life somehow, then I do want them to know that and share that.

Ryan:

Because that feels good, particularly in social media, you read a lot of negativity, and to hear that you've helped somebody. I've had, over the years, just random people send an email like, "You said something at this thing and it resonated with me," and that means a lot. I'm sure with your book you've heard this a ton. It feels good.

Rob:

It is so meaningful. Shortly after the book came out, a woman reached out to me on LinkedIn, never met her before, and she told me about how her 13-year-old son was having trouble in English class and she wanted to ask him about why are you having trouble in English class? And one of the things I write about in the book is the dangers of the word why, and how you want to ask good questions.

And she couldn't formulate exactly a new question, but she remembered the title of the book and knew she shouldn't say why, so she just said to her son, "Tell me more about what's going on in English class," and she said it opened him up in a way that had never happened before, and so she was able to actually connect with him on a deeper level, and she was able to more positively help him in English class, and all because she read my book, that stuck in her mind, and so she was able to frame that up differently. Hearing that, it's like that's what this is all about. And it's just one person, I've made a difference in one person's life, it's amazing. It's so meaningful to hear that stuff.

Ryan:

And every person matters. I have a friend who I went to high school with and she wrote this book called Everyday Ambassador, her name's Kate Otto. And the truth is I've lost touch with Kate, but I read her book, she's wonderful. And she went to the Peace Corps when she was 20, like most Westerners, "I'm going to go and save the world."

Rob:

Right.

Ryan:

And the book is basically saying, "Cool, but if I touch one person in my community and influence the circle around me, then they'll influence the circle around them, and that's one person, one conversation at a time can actually do a lot of good. And so similar to your story, that person would spread the love then.

Rob:

And shortly before the book came out last year, I work with an energy healer here in the Bay Area as part of my retinue of mental health and guidance, keeping me sane as a CEO, and we were working together on it, and she's really good at keeping me grounded, and she telling me some stuff and it just dawned on me, I was like, "Oh yeah, this is one conversation at a time," and I started laughing because I realized, well dang, that's the subtitle of the book, and that's the way I need to approach this is it is one conversation at a time, whether it's you and I having a private conversation like we did in Miami at the CEO summit, or if it's now here through this conversation, more people are listening and getting it out, but it's still one conversation at a time. And if you can have empathy and build empathy in that conversation, who knows where that's going to lead or help other people.

Ryan:

Yeah, the more we understand each other, the more we can connect, and I think we were talking about this a little bit before we started recording, but when you have natural chemistry with somebody or natural energy with somebody, that's very easy. But I think it's more interesting when you don't, because I don't know if you agree with this, but to me the innovation happens at the convergence of a lot of disciplines. And it's one of the reasons why I think diversity is so important, other than it's the right thing to do, is you bring unique people together and amazing things happen, but unique people coming together might not naturally gel, and so it requires you to understand them so that you can connect with them.

Rob:

Before all of our projects, we go through the five steps to empathy with everybody and just bring that awareness so that when they're listening in on an interview, sitting in on an in-home, or whatever, they're recognizing like, "Hey, my judgment might get in the way, and I need to be aware of that and dismantle it in the moment. I need to pay attention, actively listen, don't look at my phone, don't write my laundry list of to-dos like work, be there in the moment." And that helps foster that connection in conversation and understanding that we're all coming from different perspectives and let's be curious about it rather than judgmental.

Ryan:

Exactly. Actually, at Zappi we have this value, truth, and there's a woman on our team named Alison Scott and big fan of Allison Scott, and when we rolled them out, the interesting part is the essence of the value was we're looking for the facts, the right answer wins no matter who you are, but she went on stage to represent what the value meant to her in front of the whole company and she drew this really interesting contrast between the truth and her truth, and your truth and my truth, and how they're both equally valuable. And I found it was a very wise thing she said, and I was really happy that she did, because I just saw things differently, as soon as she said the words like, "Oh, she's so right," and you have to understand and respect everybody's truth.

Rob:

Totally. And there is empirical truth, but even there, there's interpretation of truth and through the lens of our own lived experiences and where we're coming from, and those are ultimately I think the biases that we need to be aware of and watch out for.

Ryan:

Exactly. So I want to ask you a question. I know Rob because I'm actually a fan of Rob's. I've heard him publicly speak a bunch of times, and we were both sitting at a bar in Miami when we were supposed to be at a conference. Let's be honest, you go to a conference to connect with people, and I was very appreciative when you said, "When are we going to podcast?" 

So when I was preparing for this interview, I was on your website, and you had the sentence that stuck out to me, that you're a life observer. It stuck out to me for two reasons. One, I'm super curious to know what that means to you, but two, people watching is my single favorite thing to do. So what does being a life observer mean to you?

Rob:

It's paying attention to what's going on around you and the people that are around you and observing human behavior, and I think at some level we're hopefully all trying to make meaning of it, but as a researcher, as an insights professional, I'm always curious about why people are doing the things that they're doing. And it can be, in my personal life, it's super fun to go to a museum, sit on a park bench, whatever, and just watch people and see what's going on. But also then professionally, it's in qualitative research especially, you're observing things or depending on the type of work you're doing, but I just did a bunch of strategic planning workshops for a client, and observing the dynamics of the team, it's just observing life and the way things are playing out.

I'm tuned into how many people are actually in the subway in New York City at this point in time compared to a year ago when I was there, and what's that telling me about return to office versus hybrid and just where everybody is, the energy, the mood, I've been plugged into that since I was a little kid and I enjoy it, and I enjoy the awareness of other people's lives as well as then my own. And it gives me more perspective on things that are happening for me. So I love it.

Ryan:

I'm jiving with you, but I want to unpack the perspective about what's happening to you a little bit, because I feel like there's a nugget in there. What do you mean? So you're observing what's happening, you're triangulating culture, and what does that mean for different things? And it's forming intuition neurons in your brain and then you're self reflecting, say a little bit more about that.

Rob:

I'm thinking of different examples. I'm always curious about how plugged in I am to what's happening versus what's actually happening that's out there. So what are the things that I'm experiencing, and then are other people experiencing that? So I was just on a 10-day business trip, in four or five cities, I can't remember anymore. 10 days, seven airplanes, the whole bit, it went really well, but it's exhausting on another level. 

And am I the only one that's having that experience, or what am I noticing, what am I hearing from people that I'm talking to? And there's some affirmation bias that's thrown in there, but I'm paying attention to and trying to connect dots with what I'm picking up like what are other people commenting on social media? People are enjoying connecting in person again, but I don't hear anybody talking about how much they're loving travel right now.

Ryan:

Amen.

Rob:

And what is that about? Or people on our team that are having fatigue doing things that used to be so second nature. I was talking to somebody else yesterday about just the treadmill that we were all on before the pandemic, and running and running and running, and then all of a sudden that stopped and then you had this chance to reflect, and was that really productive or good for me, the value of commute time or not, and then the choices that we're now able to make. So to me, observing what's happening to other people is giving me perspective on what's happening to myself.

On a deeper personal level, I feel like the last five and a half years now I have been in a masterclass graduate degree on grief and loss from relatives, close friends suddenly dying, others just grandma died at 104, this is one of my primary emotional relationships, and I'm learning so much about the way I process grief and what I'm needing, but also seeing how other people are reacting. So it's that observation of life, but then it relates back to you and it helps you understand how you're fitting in with a collective experience or an individual experience, and that can either make you feel better or sometimes go, "There's something off here in the way that I'm experiencing it, maybe I need to explore that further, whether it's through mental health or some other way to get resolution."

Ryan:

It's fascinating because it allows you to have introspection but also almost to disentangle your own biases like, "Okay, I feel this, but if nobody else is, is that a truth?" A lot of CEOs of big companies that we both do businesses with would benefit from that. I had an example the other day where we had a customer who the data's got to be wrong because I think this advertisement's good, and it's like, "Well, sure, you're a rich, white male, and you live in a mansion and you're not experiencing the things you're marketing that people are experiencing, and so your emotional reaction to that just might be different than the average person who lives in Chicago.

Rob:

Yeah, exactly. And it's having that self-awareness of your judgment and that he's being judgmental about it, and then saying, "Well, no, it's my way or the highway. I'm right." Versus going, "Well, wait, no, this could be wrong for somebody else." So he's actually, I'm presuming, I you think you said straight white male, but-

Ryan:

Oh, yeah, we could call him Chad, you've met him 3000 times. All love for Chad. We've got nothing against..

Rob:

Absolutely grateful for all the things that Chad has enabled in my life, but at the same time with Chad, there's work. And honestly on that CEO perspective, and the data that we have at Ignite 360 on empathy, judgment's the hardest thing for people to overcome, they're less likely to dismantle their judgment compared to the other steps, asking good questions, listening, et cetera. 

And when you think about an education level, you're either not educated enough, so you're not aware that you need to dismantle your judgment, or you were so educated that you're taught that you have to be right and that you defend your position rather than to actually say, "Wait a minute, I could be wrong about this." And at the CEO level especially, there's a company called Businessolver, and they have a study that comes out every year called the State of Workplace Empathy, and last year in their study they found that 69% of CEOs believe it's their job to build empathy in the workplace. That's great. More than two thirds.

Yet 79% of CEOs say they struggle to be empathetic, and 77% of CEOs worry they will lose respect if they're too empathetic. So there's this huge tension there. They recognize, yeah, we got to do this, but they're not comfortable in their own skills, and there's a lot of misperceptions around empathy where they think it's all emotion. So one of the things I'm always talking about, and I think you've heard me talk about, is about cognitive empathy, it's about perspective taking.

So if you're Chad, yeah, I relate to this ad, but I'm not this consumer and let me step into their shoes and try to see the world from their perspective and take the time to have that cognitive empathy. And it's not a huge amount of time, but take that moment, have the courage to step into their shoes, see the world from their perspective, and then maybe go, "Oh, I get why they like that ad." This is the jiu jitsu, as I call it, that insights professionals have to do, particularly when you're on the client's side, and you not only have to have empathy yourself with the stakeholder, but you've got to have empathy with Chad and understand-

Ryan:

What he's going through.

Rob:

What he's going through, and then you've got to do the wizardry of connecting Chad to that consumer as well. So you, if you're the insights professional, have to have empathy in three different ways, and one of which does not involve you yourself.

Ryan:

And that's a hard thing. I want to go deep on each of the five steps, but it segues into the other side of what you said, which I'll frame in my own words, but when I feel something that you aren't feeling and it triggers me, or I feel upset or defensive or unsafe, there's a learning on the other side of that. And I have so much love for the consumer insights industry, and I'm going to tell you why in a second, but when I notice people getting defensive about, well, what will I do if data is with Chad? There's learning on the other side of that, I think. So I always encourage people that I work with, when you feel triggered or defensive, lean into that because there's a breakthrough through that awkwardness.

Rob:

Yes. Self-awareness, that metacognition, the mindfulness, starting to understand the thoughts that go through your head, that voice that's inside you that's running in tandem to the things that are coming out of your mouth or other processes, pay attention to that and use that, so that observer of life, that's some of what's going on is I'm paying attention to how I'm reacting or what else I'm sensing or picking up, and just always looking to solve the puzzle, I guess. But when you're not comfortable with something, you've got to understand where it's coming from. And there's another concept that I talk about, it's not in the book, but I use in my presentations of late, of this idea of taking a curious breath. So if you are in an interaction with somebody and maybe you're feeling that wellspring of your breathing, that tightness, stop and take a curious breath.

So just inhale and exhale. And while you're doing that, turn things around, try to get curious, and try to ask the questions to help understand where somebody else is coming from, and that idea of taking a breath, it's just a short, short pause, but you can do so much with it by just doing that in terms of dropping your judgment, okay, let's talk about this, tell me more about what's going on, or where you're coming from, how you're thinking that way, instead of that immediate response. 

And look, I'm very forthright and honest, sometimes you're getting triggered and you just can't do it, and in those cases you want to just step away so that you can have a bigger, broader, curious breath and understand then what was actually going on. And this plays out in the workplace as well as in your personal life. And quite honestly, your personal relationships can trigger you even more than the ones in the workplace.

Ryan:

Yeah, it's true. And so I work with an executive coach who's all about empathy, because I have ADHD and one of the things that we've been working on is how nature impacts me. And so a lot of times I'll just be like, "I need a minute," and I will get lost in the woods for an hour and then I can process everything. But the curious breath is such a good tool for people because while those four seconds of breathing might feel like an eternity, it does a lot, breathing out is a lot to just say, "Okay, now my shoulders are a little bit less tense. What was I actually thinking?" And it's one of the societal issues, I have young children and I'm dead set that I'm not going to beat the curiosity out of them. And Chad, most likely, had to build his career by being the expert at everything. And it's actually okay not to be the expert, folks.

So we're both executives, I guarantee you, Rob, you've done this, yesterday I was in a meeting with somebody, and I probably should have known the answer, and I was like, "What does that mean? I'm sorry, I just don't understand that." And the other person was like, "Oh, okay, let me explain it to you." And that's completely okay guys and gals.

Rob:

There's this perception, myth that should be busted, I believe, that a CEO should not have all the answers, the CEO should be asking the right questions in order to make an informed decision, and then it's to be surrounded by the people that can contribute to the decision making and can provide the perspectives. And hopefully, what I try to do is listen to everybody on my leadership team and talk through, and often the path that we go down isn't originated by me. It's the recommendation of my CFO, my head of HR, my COO, Lisa, they're the ones that are making a suggestion. 

And it's like, "Okay, that makes sense," and listen to all the different points of view, and you make a decision and go forward from there. What's a super popular show that everybody's excited about coming back? Succession. Is there any empathy that's displayed in Succession? No, not at all. It's all cutthroat.

And just as one example of all the programming and the training and the messages that Chad received growing up about how not just men are supposed to show up at work, but how a CEO is supposed to show up, or if you're going to get ahead, you've got to be this way, that way, cutthroat, driven, it's not emotion. There's no room to show support, comfort, compassion for anybody, those were the messages, and the media is riddled with all of that, and we are getting those subliminal cues. This might take us in a totally different direction, but I was having a fascinating conversation with a client the other day, works at Microsoft, and she's doing a lot around AI and understanding, and we were talking about GPT-4 and everything, and she said the thing that's concerning to her is she asked, put an inquiry in, and the prompt was to show an image or a definition of a competent leader and show me a definition of a nice leader. And for a competent leader, a man showed up, and for a nice leader, a woman showed up.

Ryan:

No way.

Rob:

And it was like, "Oh my God, of course," because when you're putting those queries in, where is the AI drawing its knowledge from?

Ryan:

The past.

Rob:

The past, everything that's happened. So no matter how hard we're working to change things and make a better positive workplace, it's drawing from past knowledge or experience or perceptions that are out there. And so it's like, "Whoa, that's really concerning." So we're dealing with the past 20 years as a huge steamer trunk that we're dragging with us into the future, and hopefully they'll start to reprogram to overcome some of the biases that existed, but I don't know if they're really paying attention to it.

Ryan:

And I don't know why either. And I see a lot of people who've carried that weight, that AI example's a summary, that are wanting to work differently, wanting to lead differently, wanting to behave in an environment that they can be themselves, and be empathetic, and innovate and try stuff and fail, but the scar tissue of that legacy is real.

Rob:

Oh, yeah.

Ryan:

It's real. It's hard to shake that for people.

Rob:

It's hard to shake it for people, and then you bump into the expectations of others that you might run into, so you've got a legal team that you're working with that's outside your company and they've got their own baggage, and I had accountants that have wanted me to be much more cutthroat in compensation or other sort of situations. And it's like, "No, that's not how I want to show up." But I have to fight that then and tell them, "Well, no, I believe we should do this instead and here's why. And can counsel me and advise me on stuff," but you're constantly working against it. So it takes a lot of courage to show up as the CEO that you want to be rather than the CEO that others think you should be.

Ryan:

And it's easy to get pulled in all those directions or to judge the sideline, but kudos to you. I'm the same way, I'm not going to change who I am. I'm going to grow, but I'm going to be me, and that's important.

Rob:

And it was interesting listening to the discussions at the CEO summit about companies that received investment or were acquired and how important it was about that fit and that connection to the investors that we were going to be working with, with the banks that were going to be representing us. It's so important that we're working with people that get us and understand where we're coming from.

Ryan:

And respect us. Because the thing is everybody's got a superpower at something, and I think it's one of the challenging jobs of a leader is to figure out what someone's superpower and, A, can I put them in a position to do that and does that align with what I need? And I can root cause to analyze any failed employee relationship down to that misalignment. That's the root cause usually.

Rob:

Absolutely.

Ryan:

Not usually money or anything else. Did that harmonization fall out?

Rob:

Totally.

Ryan:

So I want to ask you a question. Well, let's stay on this AI example. I believe technology, data and AI, are and will become a commodity quickly. And I do not believe that makes the insights department extinct, but I believe it requires them to elevate above all that and bring empathy to the matrix, bring empathy to the dataset so that the customer in their full orientation is represented in Chad's boardroom.

And the orientation of the customer isn't how they consume this can of soda, it's I woke up, I went and did my Peloton, I brushed my teeth, I walked my dog, I had breakfast, it's my life. And I find that to be such a motivating thing because nobody who works in insights wants to run conjoint surveys for a living, that's not why they did this. And so it's the main reason why I wanted to talk to you is I think the opportunity is bringing empathy to this matrix.

And so because we talked about Peloton for 20 minutes and because we're almost out of time, I wanted to talk to you specifically about this and how insights people can bring more empathy of what they're going through to the organizations they bring, but also how can they bring more empathy to the leaders that they're supporting and helping make decisions with? And if we talk about it through the lens of your five steps, which is the question I'm cutting out, full disclosure, that'd be really cool, because I think there's a degree of defensiveness I feel when I consult with our customers of what do I do if the data collection stuff isn't my job, and I feel for that, but to me the other side of that is so motivating. And so I'd love to talk to you about that for a few minutes.

Rob:

There's been a movement, it's been going on for years now, I think on the corporate side where the clients are recognizing they need to be more of a consultant to their stakeholders, and that's not necessarily a skillset that everyone has or that the organizations are training. 

And you need empathy to persuade somebody, so consulting is a lot. And so you've got to understand where those other people are coming from and what might motivate them, what is it that drives them, and then use that. So again, it's that sort of jiu-jitsu empathy wizardry that I was talking about earlier where you've got to really master not just understanding what the consumer's going through, but understand your stakeholders, what's going to motivate them, what's going to drive business results, get big bonus, buy the house, be Chad, all that. 

And then in making that connection. And what technology and AI cannot do at this point is really capture that intuitive, the nuanced depth of emotion, you can try to code it as much as you want and code your open ends, but that's only as good as the range that you're giving it, and there's a lot more to it, and then it's really difficult to translate that. You've got to be a good storyteller and understand and see the bigger picture, be the life observer, understand what's going on, how people are thinking and feeling, and be able to convey that in a way that's motivating and inspiring.

Ryan:

The machine can't sit in that subway, Rob, and watch the world go by and triangulate what that means for the business that you work in. It won't be able to do that.

Rob:

Exactly. It's going to be able to take the CCTV data and tell you, "Hey, there's an uptick in people wearing this type of shoe," but it's not going to be able to tell you the why, why are people needing that. We were giving a presentation to a client team about this topic and it' it sounds like we're advocating for qualitative research, or more qualitative, and in some ways you need to talk to people and understand it, but it's even taking the data that you've got, the results that you've got, and translating and creating the why, and putting it into a story that's motivating so that Chad understands why this ad will work to grow their business.

It's great that Chad doesn't like it, or does like it, whatever, Chad can go make his own commercial and we'll do a special edit and a soft silky voiceover for him. But what you need for the consumer is this, because this is their life, and here's why, and that's where the consulting piece gets into it. And having the courage, it's easy for you and I as that third party consultant to go in and say, "You need to do this. Think about it that way." Well, I'm not getting my review done by Chad or his director.

Ryan:

Correct, my bonus, all that.

Rob:

My bonus, my future, my advancement, my happiness at work. There's some data I saw I shared on LinkedIn last week, managers have the same impact on somebody's emotional health or mental health as a person's spouse.

Ryan:

That makes perfect sense. Also, you've got quite a big responsibility as a manager.

Rob:

Right. And now how much training did you go through, or do you think Chad went through, in understanding how to be empathetic, supportive, and create a positive impact on people's mental health? Zero.

Ryan:

And we're not enabling people to do this. You have to [inaudible 00:36:12] It's a very scary thing. And I think you talk about more qual, I think the opportunity is that the data is just there, so I don't care if it's qual or quan, it's the synthesis of it and the triangulation of it, that's the opportunity. 

Let's try something fun. We've got five minutes. Five steps to be more empathetic? You have to read the book, people, to get the actual meat. And Rob wrote a business book that isn't a business book, it actually tells a story and takes you on a journey. And I appreciate you for that because most business books, Rob, stuck. They're 20 pages of an idea and then they have to fill the rest to get the book deal, so I appreciate you. But in five minutes, take us through the five steps, because I want to make sure the audience gets them. We got a little clickbait for you so you can go buy Rob's book and enjoy the hell out of it.

Rob:

All right. And so my favorite quote from someone about the book is that this book has sex, drugs, guns, and a penis mirror. I share my stories, my experiences doing ethnographic work, times that I've been put in a place with others, times when I've had to, step one, dismantle my judgment. So drop being judgmental, open myself up to hearing what people have to say. Step two, the times that I ask good questions. And when you're talking about sex with somebody, you need to ask really good questions, but in talk I talk about how to actually do that. So critical to get to empathy.

Step three is active listening, paying attention to what's being said and what's not being said. And there's a great story actually set in Boston, the chapter's called the Ghost in The Room, where I sensed that there was something else in the room with us along with the respondent and took the time to unpack what that was, and the really moving story that came out of that. So step three is active listening. Step four, integrating into understanding. You go in to do a deep dive on your brand champion and you're a healthy snack food product, and you find a bong in the person's apartment, total dissonance of how you think about your consumer. But you've got to integrate into understanding and make room in your head that, hey, they like healthy food, but they also like to-

Ryan:

They want to hit a bong.

Rob:

And we live in Colorado and it's legal, so it's not a bad thing, but be curious about it, so make room in your head. And then finally step five, which is using solution imagination. So taking those things that you're hearing and using it to further the conversation. And the example, one of the chapters in there, one is actually when I interviewed a person that was homeless during some intercepts we were doing on the impact of the recession, did not realize when the person walked up that they were homeless, did not present that way in the stereotypes that you would expect, but found out that he was homeless, and the whole chapter is called the Trappings of Success, and what led him to his homelessness and the experience of life on the streets. So really fascinating.

Another time I was interviewing a woman, we were doing a study on recent immigrants into Canada, how they were acclimating, and this was a woman from India, she was Hindi, and in Hindu religion, the cow is a sacred symbol. And because her teaching credentials from India did not transfer over to Canada, were not recognized, she had to get a job at Burger King working the grill line. 

And so all of a sudden you're putting your religion's sacred symbol through the flame broiler, and what's that like? And using solution imagination is connecting these dots, observing these things and going, "Whoa, wait a minute, what does that mean? Tell me about that experience. Tell me more about it." And so that's another one of the chapters in the book, what are you willing to sacrifice? So you have to have awareness of all these steps. And these are things that you're doing in the moment while you're talking to somebody else or having an exchange, and you need to have that metacognition of what's actually going on, how am I showing up, am I taking a curious breath in order to try to get to empathy?

Ryan:

Wow, you did it in three minutes. You're a legend. That was impressive.

Rob:

That's the fastest I've probably done it, and I think I got all the points across.

Ryan:

Well, the truth is it was great, because I don't know if you did this on purpose, but you touched on every single one of them while we were naturally just chatting as you were going through. I could talk to you all day. Next time we got together, we got to have a few libations by the beach. But folks, Tell Me More About That, available everywhere books are sold. Ignite 360, great business, look it up, Rob and his team might be able to help you bring empathy into your organization. And I'm telling you insights, folks, this is our future. It's the reason I was so happy that to have Rob on the show today, it's really, really important. And I really just can't thank you enough for gracing us with your presence and your time and your wisdom, and also just you, you're awesome, man. It's a pleasure.

Rob:

It's been awesome. Thank you. And I hope those Peloton people find me as an empathy activist and connect. And we actually started a little MRX hashtag.

Ryan:

Yes, we did.

Rob:

If you're in the Peloton community, #MRX 

Ryan:

#MRX. You're an empathy activist, and I am, hey, how are ya, because I like to make fun of the fact that I'm from Boston.

Rob:

I love it. We're going to do more of that over libations next time we're together.

Ryan:

Yes, we will. Well, the truth is more libations, more Boston accent, that's how that goes. Rob, thank you my friend. It was good to see you. And thanks for sharing your wisdom with us.

Rob:

Awesome, Ryan. Thanks for having me.

[Music transition to takeaways]

Ryan:

The only problem with our episode with Rob was that we spent a half hour talking before we hit record, so we were short on time. I could have done a two-hour episode with Rob because he's wonderful and had so much wisdom to share. I will tell everybody that the first 30 minutes of our recording was 100% about Peloton. So we might start a Peloton podcast, who knows? 

But this is not about Peloton. This is about market research and insights, and this episode was about empathy. So Patricia, what did you learn, my friend?

Patricia:

So we were just talking before we started recording, and I told you that for me, this episode was like a really, really good smooth scotch. It was just one of those conversations that I could have just listened to and listened to and listened to. It was just easy listening, but at the end of it, I found I had absolutely learned so many things.

So there are two words that, yes, empathy, of course, but there are two words that kept coming back to me during the conversation that you guys had. When is it he has empathy? Activist, not just empathetic, he's an activist. He actually gets out there and walks the talk. He does it, and he talked a lot about being there in the moment. 

You guys, I don't know if you realize this, but you went from fan-boying all over Peloton, smoothly into the topic of empathy, and without us even realizing, you said so at the end, he touched upon the five points of his book; dismantled judgment, asked good questions, active listening, integrating to understanding and, using solution imagination without any stress.

What does this say to me? He lives it. He lives the empathy. He is not just spouting, he's not just selling books. He's actually living it and trying to make a change in the world, which I thought was amazing.

You asked him a really cool question that, if you had asked anybody else, it would've been weird, but you said, "what does being a life observer mean to you?" Because he said he was a life observer. Well, you know, it's that you observe life, you'd think, right? 

But no, it's all about paying attention to what's going on around you. He talks about intentionality, the activism part and seeing what's going on in observing human behavior, but this is the second word that comes to me when I think about everything you talked about is triangulation. He says that when he's observing, he's also observing how it affects him. So he's watching the world around him, he's watching the environment around him, he's in the moment, and he is seeing how it affects him. So it's just like a very virtuous cycle because it not only teaches him about the world that he's watching, it also teaches them about himself.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Patricia:

So being a life observer for him is all about watching, but putting meaning to it, being intentional. Which is something we've talked about in different podcasts and this is a totally different spin to it, but as an insights professional, as a researcher, he's curious about the why like we all are. He enjoys the awareness of other people's lives as well as the effect it has on his own, and how depending on his mood, he's able to see other people in a different light. I thought that was amazing.

The other triangulation that you guys talked about was triangulating culture. You asked him to say a little bit more about that, and he said that it's an observation of life. We go back to the same thing. He talked about observing, but observing intentionally. It relates back to you. So triangulation of culture is my culture, where I come from, what I've been through, what I'm feeling, not only in my history and in my baggage, but today, this very, very moment, and how that fits in with the person that I'm observing, what culture they're from, and the environment that we're both in at the same time.

So he talks about that triangulation, and I don't think I'd thought about that, about observing. I always thought about it two, like you and me, or me in the environment, but he talks about the three. I think that's so important that he brings the third dimension to us for us to understand, because he says that's where you find the resolution many times. That's what takes him to triangulating empathy. 

He talks about triangulating culture, triangulating empathy, and all of this about observing. That's why you have to be empathetic to others, yes to your customer. To others, your stakeholder, but also to yourself. Be aware of who you are and where you are in the moment, so you know what your biases are and what your situation is, so you can interpret yourself and the way you're interpreting in the right way. Pardon my redundancy, but I was so impressed with how he brought in the triangulation. I thought that was brilliant. 

Ryan:

Yeah, he really does. What's interesting, I was thinking while we were talking, remember our episode with Mark Ritson talking about market orientation.

Patricia:

Yeah.

Ryan:

That's how you do it. Mark talked about it scientifically, but Bob talked about how to do it and how to do that. I loved his example of sitting in the subway and just watching the world go by. We were talking about insights. Does that sound like insights need to be more qual? It's more like, no, we're going to build plumbing, and all the data's going to be homogenous. 

Our job is to make sure that we bring that perspective to the data. I think it's a really important message for everybody. I recommend you go read the book and you hire Rob immediately so we can, you'd be more empathetic.

Patricia:

There was a bonus if you permit me a bonus that I learned.

Ryan:

Oh, I'm into a bonus Friday. Let's go.

Patricia:

It's a bonus Friday. So both of you have probably heard me say about how much I love why, and how I've been doing why since I was four years old. The layers of why, and making sure you understand the real why, not just "Why are you buying toothpaste? Because I ran out." No, that's not why you're buying toothpaste. Why are you buying deodorant? Yada yada, right? He taught me, and I'm going to have to reread that book. I read it once. I loved it. I'm going to reread it. He taught me about the double-edged sword of why. Why has a lot of power, but why has also some danger to it. He talked about the reason why you should be careful when you use the word why.

When he talked about that woman who wrote to him, or called him when she was talking about her son in the English class. It was so powerful for me to understand how in your face and abrasive it can be when somebody is in a delicate moment, and when you say "Why", right? Maybe you're saying "Why", but they're going to hear "Why." So be really careful about when you're asking why because you don't know what situation they're in. You have to be empathetic to them because sometimes that “why” that I love so much is not going to be the right word. That was my bonus for today.

Ryan:

Yeah, it's true. I liked his thing of asking more questions, but asking good questions and it's a good reflection.

Patricia:

Yes.

Ryan:

There's a book that I picked up, I can't remember the name of it, Nancy Klein I think wrote it, about actually some techniques of asking questions. I need to pick that back up and read it.

Patricia:

Oh, let me know when you find it so I can go read it myself.

Ryan:

Yeah, I will. Now next intro, outro we're going to have to remember it together, so I'll share it.

Patricia:

Yes.

Ryan:

So ladies and Gens, boys and Girls, children of all ages, that was a wonderful episode. We all have a pub to get to. Our next episode is with Oksana Sobol, who is the head of Insights, recently appointed Head of Insights for Clorox. 

I've had the pleasure of knowing Oksana since 2014 when she was an insights manager at Mondelez's, and have just watched her kick and take names. She is a strong leader. She is empathetic. Not only has she risen and driven the corporate ladder, and she's already making major moves, which you'll hear about in the episode at Clorox. She's Ukrainian, and she's raising a ton of awareness and money in being an activist to help her country and her people back at home. She is a mom. She is a friend, and she's an avid outdoor sportswoman. It's just going to be a real treat to talk to Oksana, as you could tell, big fan of Okana's. So we'll see you next time.

Patricia:

Bye!