How to be a better leader (and a better human)

Ryan Barry:

Hi everybody. Welcome to this episode of Inside Insights, a podcast powered by Zappi. You know who I am, my name is Ryan. And you know who she is, her name is Patricia Montesdeoca, my co-host, joining me each and every week. Patricia, what's happening?

Patricia Montesdeoca:

I am enjoying the last of the benevolent fall weather. It's been a little chilly, but not ridiculously cold and I'm enjoying every minute of it in my dog walks.

Ryan:

Yeah, it's really nice. I like the coziness, the fire's back on, and we're about 10 days away from getting a Christmas tree, which is kind of cool. What do you do for Thanksgiving, Patricia? What's your Thanksgiving?

Patricia:

Oh, I am full. This is where all of my Americana comes out. I'm Colombian-born and U.S. raised, so it's been my mission in life to bring Thanksgiving into everybody that doesn't have a Thanksgiving's life. I have been spreading the Thanksgiving cheer. My favorite holiday. I cook as much as I can for as many people as I can. Sometimes I've had two or three different holiday celebrations. I'm going home for Thanksgiving to be with my boyfriend, my honey. And we usually do a Friendsgiving and then a family giving.

Ryan:

I like that. Friendsgiving is cool. I never really did have Friendsgiving. It's probably because I'm really close to where I grew up, so my family's just close by, but I love the idea of it. I also think it's cool that you bring in people who are not close to family or friends.

Patricia:

Yep, teaching them.

Ryan:

Fun fact, thanksgiving is my favorite holiday. It's by far my favorite holiday and I'll tell you why. There's no expectations, you eat good food with good people, have good times and there's not a lot of pressure, it's just...it's chill. So I'm very, very thankful for Thanksgiving. I'm very thankful for you. I'm very thankful for you too, Kelsey. And I'm excited for a break. It's going to be nice, a couple days off.

The other cool thing about Thanksgiving is it's always the same weekend as my wife's birthday, which means we always get a babysitter and we always cut loose a little bit, have a little party. We're going to have a good time. Happy Thanksgiving to you, all of our listeners, we appreciate you.

Patricia:

And happy birthday to your wife, early.

Ryan:

Jill Barry. And this is the time every single year that I get to remind her that she's two years older than me for two weeks. She's my sugar mama.

Patricia:

She's such a cougar.

Ryan:

Yep, she is. She is, absolutely. I out-kicked my coverage in life and I'm very grateful for that. But nobody came here to talk about Jill Barry, although she is a lovely lady. Today we're going to have a conversation with somebody who's very near and dear to me, my coach, Dr. Nora Infante. She's a woman who I met just under two years ago. Truth is, as of today, we're very close friends, but she's made a huge impact on my life.

She coaches executives in all different types of companies, all different industries. She comes at it from an emotional intelligence point of view, but also she's done a lot of work around the impact of nature on leadership and creativity. And so much of our podcast is designed to give you tangible tips to do your job better, but if you are not at your best and you're not leading your teams to be at their best, a lot of the tangible tips and tactics that we give you here on the podcast will fall short. There is no one size fits all template to leadership. Each person's different, they're motivated in different ways. I thought it was a really good idea to allow Nora to enlighten us. I hope you enjoy the interview.

Patricia:

Let's do this.

[Music transition to interview] 

Ryan Barry:

Nora, I'm so excited to have you. Thank you for making the time.

Nora Infante:

Very happy to be here, Ryan.

Ryan:

So as I said in the preamble, Nora is a lovely human being who came into my life a year and a half ago.

Nora:

Yeah, something like that.

Ryan:

Something like that. Year what? Somebody was telling me a story the other day of something that happened three years ago. And I was like, "Yeah, last year when it happened."

Nora:

I know. I was in California a few weeks ago and was somewhere and the guy was reminding me that what I remembered is just like yesterday was 30 years ago. I'm like, "No way, do not tell me that was 30 years ago that the swimming hole was here and it hasn't been here for 30 years."

Ryan:

Bringing back the swimming hole, California, come on. What are you thinking? All right. Well, I'm really excited that you were able to join us. So you're a unique guest. So we're usually talking with practitioners of insights and marketing, giving people tangible ideas they can bring to work, but you know what? Work hard. Leadership is hard. Navigating bureaucracy and corporate culture is really hard. And you and I have a very private every two week discussion about all the things I have to navigate. And there's just so much good you brought to me personally that I thought it would be selfish not to share some of your insights with everybody else. So thank you for making the time.

Nora:

Yeah.

Ryan:

So before we get going, let's just talk a little bit about you. So I gave you a bit of an intro before we got here, but your background, what got into the line of work you're in? And say a little bit about not just your journey to get to this place, but the types of people, the types of organizations that you've done your work with, because I know it's quite vast. And then we'll get into the meat of the discussion.

Nora:

Okay. Well, I think I'm probably a little bit different than most executive coaches in terms of how I got to this work, I was a clinical psychologist. I am still a clinical psychologist. That was my entree into this world. And when I was doing my pre and postdoc fellowship, it was in geriatric psychology. And what I was really interested in was how does the brain work? How are behaviors and cognition affected by the brain? And so the whole world of neuro psych in geriatric psych is just so fascinating. And so that really is my first entry into curiosity about why people do what they do from a neurological point of view. And I had a very diverse, private practice, all kinds of different people, kinds of situations. And through a few clients ended up doing some litigation consulting where I was working with criminal defense attorneys and their executive clients. And they bring me in when they had some really good person that had some leader very successful in every other respect of their life, except for they screwed up in some major way. And we're now facing criminal charges.

And so they wanted to understand how could this seemingly good person very successful in business do something so dumb. And so I would spend a lot of time talking to these executives and getting some insight into just what their thinking was, what their wives were like, how they saw their business. And it was my first aha moment around emotional intelligence. And that you could have leaders who were super bright, super ambitious, but lacked this incredibly important aspect of leadership, which is the self awareness part. And so they lacked judgment, they lacked impulse control, they lacked humility and inevitably most of the time, they were shocked that these things happened to them, that they got caught and they had a hard time understanding why was it so wrong for me to skim off the top? Or why was it so wrong for me to take a bribe from that local politician?

That was my first introduction to working and coaching executives who were around helping them develop insight and awareness of why they had done these things that were really so damaging to the businesses they had so carefully built up. So in my private practice, I was working with executives who were in trouble with the law. And at the same time, I was recruited by a small boutique firm in New York to do work in South America, I was born in South America and so I'm bilingual, to help them with mergers and acquisitions and help them identify high potentials and do some leadership development of the high potentials in the context of these acquisitions.

And so I went from learning about executives and executive culture through these criminal cases to learning about organizations through doing consulting work in Latin America in very large multinational companies buying up smaller companies all through Argentina and Brazil and Venezuela. And really on the ground learned what my education was. I did not go to school to learn about organizations and learn about leadership, but I just by virtue of my clinical practice and my reputation got introduced to this whole world of organizations and leadership.

And then I kept both of these going to clinical practice and the organization worked for a while. And then I joined RHR, which is a professional services firm in our national charter. I joined them as a partner and was with them for a few years until I left and decided I really, really loved working with individual leaders and small senior teams around emotional development and just helping them understand what role they play, not just as the person that comes up with strategy and the person who makes these big business decisions, but what role do they play in terms of creating culture, in terms of just making the organization a thriving, healthy, happy place to be.

Ryan:

Yes. And I can speak firsthand to a lot of this, but we'll talk about me later, because that's usually…

Nora:

Well, and as I was saying that, I was thinking of you…

Ryan:

There's an interesting thing about what you said there about what got you into that and a linkage to some of the stuff we have worked on. But it'd be vulnerable with my guests. I'm a hard charging, emotionally driven person. And a year and a half ago, I didn't have control over things, I called them triggers or when I would bark. And so I think a lot of people with the best of intentions and other skills get to a place in their career with a certain set of technique, and then if they don't unlearn them, they can get themselves into trouble or get into bad situations or probably work probably best case, just hit a ceiling of what they can actually do.

Nora:

All right. Exactly. And get really frustrated and don't understand why. And often the bad behavior comes from there, because they really haven't developed that self awareness and frustration can be a destructive thing. 

Ryan:

Okay. So let's zoom out a little bit. So you work with executives, big companies, small companies, all different sectors, correct?

Nora:

Yes. I love that about this profession is that I get to be everywhere. And so I have been on the floor of where rockets are being built with coaching leaders in aerospace. And I've been in financial services. I work with architects, I've been in software development, I've been in healthcare. And so it's so exciting from a professional point of view to have access to all of these different industries. And they're obviously all very different in what they do in the world, but what's really fascinating to me is often I get asked by potential coaches, so what industry do you work in? I want to make sure that I can understand their industry.

But what's really been so fascinating to me is that when it comes to leadership, yeah, the industries are interesting, but that's not where my work is, it is not really about that industry. And so I find that there are universal skills that are absolutely critical to a leader's success, whether he or she is building rockets or running a huge financial services firm, that there are certain skills that are universally important within successful leadership.

Ryan:

So let's unpack the skills. So that diverse experience. Zoom out a bit and tell me what are the constant skills that you think define a great leader? And then we'll flip it on its head to talk about where you see people struggle.

Nora:

For me, really, a lot of it falls under the umbrella of emotional intelligence. And I use that and I get annoyed by that term now because it's everywhere and everything's emotional intelligence. But the reality is that it's an important umbrella. In many ways I think it's one of the most important umbrellas, because what's underneath that, the ability to listen, the ability to have curiosity about other points of view. All of these things that I'm going to say are all things that I think are just tremendously important in good leadership. The ability to manage one's emotions. We all come to any situation with our histories with our baggage, the things that trigger us, the things that make us react versus really being able to pause and be deliberate about our actions. We all have those buttons that get pushed.

So a good leader has got to have a high level of self awareness and ability to look at themselves in the context of the bigger picture to understand how their demeanor impacts the team, has to be able to know how to have a difficult conversation that is going to leave somebody not feeling deflated, but actually maybe feel inspired to change. And I think a good leader is always looking at the bigger context of their impact, and also looking at those small details of their own behavior of individuals on their team behavior. There's just this holistic way of engaging the world around them that I think is what makes a leader a sensitive and inspiring person to work for and can get things done.

Ryan:

It's interesting, because I never really had this thought, but there are potentially "bad leaders of people" who were good at being strategically high level or in the weeds, but missed that piece that you're describing, which is being able to do that with the strategy being about them and their impact versus their P&L, their department. So I think that self awareness is really important too and it's hard for people. So I guess, what are some of your go to steps to get somebody more emotionally aware of what their emotional triggers are and what those impact layers are? Obviously you and I went through a long coaching program, are there any shortcuts that you would give my listeners of advice to where to start? 

Nora:

Well, most of the coaching that I do involves 360. And I'm an enormous fan of 360s, whether your coach goes out and solicits 360 feedback on you or not, whether you yourself go do it. I think that that point of feedback is so critical to helping you develop that self awareness, because self reporting is one thing and observing ourselves is one thing. But we have all kinds of bias constantly, but we especially have biases in terms of ourselves, the stories we tell ourselves about how we are and the things we're good at and the things we're not good at, and that may or may not be accurate. And so I think it is part of developing your self awareness, getting feedback from others, paying attention to other people's responses to you. If you're constantly having or you seem to frequently be having negative interactions and you're interpreting it as, gosh, what's wrong with all of these people, well, no, I think it's like self awareness is what's wrong? What am I doing? That is, what's the pattern here? And that's another.

Pattern recognition is an enormous part of self awareness, being able to stop and look at what are the patterns that are happening in my leadership, in my world around me that I just can't seem to get away from, and identifying them and really doing an examination as to what the cause of it is. And I think that, that's again where feedback is so helpful. And it takes courage. And that's another part of good and courageous leadership is to get the feedback. It takes courage to ask for real feedback. A lot of leaders are very proud and because they got to a certain level by being really smart and in control, they don't want to hear the bad feedback. They would rather keep doing what they think is working and not be opening up cans of worms that they don't want to hear and they don't know how to deal with. So I really think that the first step is how are you going to get that honest perspective, that honest feedback about your leadership. And what are the patterns that you are recognizing that are happening around you.

Ryan:

So yeah, and I think my plus one piece of advice is listen to that. Even with the most critical feedback, there's something to learn. But I have a question for you. So you've had the benefit of coaching executives and big corporations, dare I say, perhaps not the most psychologically safe environment, maybe a little bit bureaucratic. So how does a leader, let's just say I'm a director arm of VP in the hierarchy of an organization where my boss and I might not want feedback, but I'm like, "You know what? I want to get better," how do I create the space to be vulnerable, but then also to make it okay for my teams to be vulnerable? Because my hypothesis is, if I'm working in an environment where all around me that's not safe, I might not get actual feedback from my teams, because they're scared. Or perhaps today's insights episode has had a penny drop moment for me where it says, I probably should listen, but perhaps your team will stop talking to you.

I know you've been in this scenario, how do you navigate the crap around some people, because some people might have the best intentions, they just don't know where to start?

Nora:

Right. Well, I think that it's back to... You mentioned the word vulnerability and courage and that those insights are going to just come knocking at your door. And yeah, a lot of cultures may feel like they're not safe environments. But relationships happen one on one, and so changing culture often starts with just the one-on-ones. And so I think that when you're in a culture that may not feel safe to solicit feedback, to have the conversations you want to have, you look for where's the safest place in this full matrix for me to start having honest conversation and you build out from there, because the reality is that I think at the end of the day, people want to be even the most stoic and controlling person somewhere inside, they want to know that you can have a vulnerable conversation and it will be okay, and that you can show your weaknesses or your doubts and be okay.

And so I think that when you're in a culture where it doesn't globally feel safe, you'd look for that one or two places where you can start and you start that conversation and you build from there.

Ryan:

I like that. That's just like changing management, one-on-one, right? Like don't try to boil the ocean today, go where there's momentum and use that. Okay. So if I'm not a leader and I'm listening to this and my boss really needs to hear some feedback, how would you help? How do they go about that, because I see it? Sometimes I see people plagued by just being scared, frankly, of what they're going to hear upstairs. I know that probably if you and I were having a beer, we'd say go get a better job, but it might not be that easy despite the fact that there's a great resignation. And I think to all the control freak scare tactic information hoarding executives out there, your days are numbered, but they're still going to be working hard. So how do you navigate that if you're in that environment?

Nora:

I think that if you've got a good boss, even if they're tyrannical, a good boss, they're not going to want to be replacing their team. They want to know that their team is working to improve themselves and to get better. And so I always think that a difficult conversation is best approached starting with yourself from a position of humility in some way. So if you want to go to your boss and give your boss feedback, give me an example of somebody who wants to tell their boss?

Ryan:

I don't feel like I can bring new ideas to you or the way that you interact makes it really hard for me to push what you've asked me to do forward, or the fact that your boss can derail everything we're doing means that I don't really feel motivated to try new things. 

Nora:

Yeah. Okay. Well, I think that it's always important to keep it on what you're trying to accomplish. So I have your direct report and really wanting to grow and wanting to move this agenda forward, but I'm frustrated and I'm coming to you for some insight as to how we can do this better? How can I do this better? Because I don't feel like I'm getting there. I think it's important to stay away from it, especially in the initial conversations, anything that feels too accusatory or you're doing this and therefore it's making me feel like this. I like to stay away from feelings at that level of conversation. So it's really more about what's the job that's supposed to be getting done. And what's my role in getting this job done and what am I experiencing as frustrating obstacles with trying to not get personal about it, even if it is personal?

And then it's really this nuanced dance, but I think it's... Where I see so often people make the mistake is when they start talking too much about their feelings too soon with their boss or with somebody else around feedback, you make me feel unheard, you make me feel like I'm not getting the opportunities. Those are not typically going to be productive conversations, because you've just put somebody on the defensive. But if you come to the conversation with the mutual goal, coming at it from the point of view that we're here to get something done and I need help from you boss to move this along better than is happening.

Ryan:

I like that. It makes perfect sense, Nora, because it's anchoring in a common goal versus attacking somebody. And I'll go on a slight tangent here, it's off topic. But this links to, I think, a lot of the societal strain that I see where, and I think we've talked about this. I have a huge problem with this cancel culture stuff, because it's like somebody does something incorrectly and then they've been jettisoned. And I think linking to what unites us and then discussing how we get there is a much better way than saying I can't believe you ever thought that, because most people aren't self aware to say, "Oh, that's your perspective, I'm going to respond." Most people with the best of intentions are going to react to that. 

Nora:

Totally. And I think it's something that businesses have to be careful with, because the culture on the one hand is really great when we talk about emotional intelligence in business. 

And the whole cancel culture is so embedded in how people and feelings and I feel like this person dissed me, this person insulted me, therefore, I'm never going to talk to them again. And then you just shut down all kinds of possibility and all kinds of potential, because of feelings that really weren't managed and weren't really checked out. And so while I'm an executive coach, I still think of myself as a clinical psychologist in many ways. And very often with my clients, I end up talking about emotions within the safety of our relationship to try and help them keep that emotional stuff within what we're working with and not getting acted out within the organization. And there's so many emotions, obviously that's what we're made of. 

Ryan:

Yeah, it is. And I think one of the things I've been learning, I guess, is that emotion isn't the same thing as passion, and you can be very passionate about your work, but still be in control of your emotions. 

And we've spoken about this, because sometimes I work with people in big companies and I take my work so seriously that if they react in a way that is outside of what I understood our contract to be... You remember this, there was a time where I took that personally and it's not personal. It's how somebody is engaging in their set of circumstances. And so I think understanding that you can be passionate, but in control of your emotions is a really important learning for people.

Nora:

Yeah. And I think also the example that you just gave illustrates in terms of emotional intelligence that ability to zoom out. So when you're having a reaction, part of an emotional reaction and feeling and taking something personally, which happens all the time not just to you, everybody. That's just the way that we're wired. But to understand that fact, that this is something, this reaction that I'm having, it's a wiring thing, it's not necessarily personal and part of the emotional intelligence is to what's happening here that isn't just my reaction? What's the bigger context here?

There's so much. We're just these little people in this sea of lots of people. But when we're feeling it, we tend to take up all of the space and tend to want to impose our realities on everybody else's reality. And it's just this big can get really messy, which is why I just love you in the way that you use and you utilize coaching to really just help you get that perspective of wait a minute, what's mine, what's the reality check here, because what belongs to me that I need to work on and not be bringing into the organization. That is, that isn't about me, that may be about them.

It's really the act of fine observation that is so important. And how do you build your observation skills? Not everybody's taught to observe, most of us are taught to pay attention to ourselves, but not so much to pay attention to what's around us.

Ryan:

Yeah, that's right. And my own reflection is what are the things that make me react? What are the things that make my team react? I think there's a lot of conflation of EQ, self awareness, psychological safety, emotional intelligence, that means people feel like they can't be assertive. I think that's bullshit. I think if you're aware of your own baggage and the vantage point of others, it's still your responsibility as a leader to lead. It just doesn't always mean you have to be the one with the answer or you don't react and you think about things a little bit differently. 

It's just you're going to be attuned with what's going on around you. And I think a skill that a lot of companies don't invest in for their leaders is actually the tooling of understanding yourself and your own. And in my case, probably six or seven things would trigger me to react in a not favorable way. Probably writing those down made a huge difference in terms of not doing that.

Nora:

And I think it's such a fine balance in leadership, because ultimately the role of the leader is to facilitate... You don't do it for others, but you facilitate creating a space where you're paying attention. Where do I need to step in and where do I need to just sit back and let them find their way? Because ultimately it's really important that they find their way and take responsibility and ownership over their own, their own work, their own teams. And so that stance, that engaged, that active listening, that active observation, that may look somewhat passive sometimes, but it's not, it's in anything. But you are truly... You're all ears, you're all eyes, you are fully engaged, but you're also not jumping in to fix it immediately.

There's nothing worse for someone who is trying to grow and makes a little bit of a mistake in a meeting and then has their boss jump in and take the reins away from them like, "Okay, well, you screwed up and you said that wrong, and so now I'm going to take over and humiliate you in front of everybody and not give you a chance to recover." And so I think just that stance of being the guide, but that isn't isn't inserting himself or herself in less it's really right. And that takes discernment, that takes maturity. Maturity is a word that you and I have talked about a lot as it takes maturity to be a good leader.

Ryan:

Yeah, it does. And that comes with an Inside Insights Podcast guest. We have Cal Barry gracing us with his presence. You can't avoid this stuff. Say hi. There he is. And a version of me a year and a half ago would have had a negative emotional reaction to my son shouting at me. This is actually... It's not a plan, you'll pick out. I'm not sure. I need to finish my podcast, buddy. This is a good transition, because I was going to ask you about it. You know what? This has never happened before. I'm glad it did. This is real life people.

Nora:

Exactly. And that's what we're talking about. It's not perfect. And it's crazy how in the context of business people carry around this expectation of perfection for themselves, for the team. I've seen you through the course of our work together have some moments where things did not go well. And you really, instead of beating yourself up or beating anybody up, we're like, okay, how do we take this and try and learn something from it? What are the gifts in the imperfection? Life is messy and there is no way that then businesses and people, because that's who populates the businesses, are going to be messy. And so being able to do what you just did right now with your son coming in is holding both things at the same time. I'm here as a professional, doing my podcast here and my son needs something and he's crying and whining and I gotta figure this out for a moment. And so I'm not going to get angry at him, I'm not going to cut off the show, I'm just going to... You spoke to him beautifully and he's often crying somewhere else.

Ryan:

Yeah, he's now in search of mom. Cal was a great transition, but let's just stay here for a sec. So I think some of this has to do with glorification. So the older structures and companies have become idealized, like idolizing the boss. And then in today's economy or market, you've got, I think, a glorification of unicorns and big venture capital and exponential hyper growth. And the reality is nothing is that simple or linear. So one of the companies in our space, Qualtrics, the darling of our industry, had an incredible IPO, incredible business, they built the company for 15 years. They weren't a unicorn eight or 12 years ago, it was a lot of trial and error success. And I think it is one of the things that I think that's another important thing for leaders to do is to hold the space for people to fail, because if you're not failing, you're not innovating. It's not that.

Nora:

And here I'm going to take this in this direction, which you'll be pleased with. So in nature, that doesn't happen. If you're going to build for the long run, if you're going to be a company that wants to be around, you have to build systems that are sustainable, systems that are built on adaptability. And part of adaptability is failing, is knowing where the weak spots are and being able to then build around those weak spots, adjust according to those weak spots. If you grow too fast, you probably don't know really well where your weak spots are. And it's just like architecture 101, and it is that you have to build a strong foundation in order to move up. And that's one of my concerns about just the unicorn culture is that there isn't enough emphasis on failure as being okay, as being what we learn and get stronger from and build a more adaptable organization as a result of the lessons we learned along the way. And so I find it somewhat of a distraction. 

And it's interesting to me that it is even just the symbolism of a unicorn. There's a lot to be uneasy about. This fantasy creature that is immune to reality, because it doesn't really live in reality. And so we're placing all these bets on the unicorn when it's not, the unicorn doesn't live by the real laws of nature. It's a freak of nature. And so I worry that we are creating this distraction that is exciting, because it's fast, it's big, it's colorful, it's rich, that we're creating a distraction from dealing with the realities of our current situation.

Ryan:

Yeah. And you know what, I got a lot of respect for a lot of companies that are valued at over a billion dollars, which is what unicorns are. A lot of it comes down to finding product market fit at the right time. But if you don't take the time to introspect, well, you may lose product market fit, because even that is a moving target. Markets move, customers move, people move. So the muscle to be introspective is super key. So all right. I ran out of time with you, because we've been having so much fun.

Nora:

But that's about maturity also, just like the contrast between those two things.

Ryan:

Yeah, that's exactly right, is to say things are good, why are they good? Things are bad, why are they not bad? How can we make them better? I can speak to this as somebody who's been building a company and has had ups downs, peaks, valleys, whatever you want to call it. There's greatness in the ride and there's learning at the highs and there's learning at the lows. And if you can harness both of them, it's a beautiful thing. So you do a lot of work and you've helped me vocalize my relationship with nature that I'd never had the vocabulary for before I met you. And I think the reason I want to end this topic is the last year and a half started by people saying, "Isn't it lovely that we get to see our bosses dog or kid," and it makes everybody more human.

I think we've quickly learned that it's really hard to lead teams through a little box at Zoom. It's really hard to connect as human beings to get creative, to be inspired. And I'd love for you to reflect on what you see, but also you do a lot of coaching around people's creativity and leadership and how that relates to their relationship with nature. Talk a little bit about these things.

Nora:

I'm so glad you asked about my favorite thing. So this is the thing that's really interesting. I'm going to bring it back to emotional intelligence for just a moment, that in terms of self awareness, when we talk about the ability to have perspective, the ability to control impulses, the ability to feel empathy, these are all things... These happened in the prefrontal cortex and the limbic system. For a long time, things like meditation were for people who were teaching emotional intelligence, trying to get people to meditate, because that helps activate those parts of the brain that give you that perspective, give you that impulse control. Meditation is really hard for a lot of people. And what it turns out is that observing nature will do the same things to your brain.

And so just like you, I love that sometimes you're like, let's have our session as a walk and talk or where you'll say, "You know what? I think I need to go and just go outside for a while so I can really grok this problem differently." So there's lots of research that shows that nature helps activate these parts of our brain that are really important for emotional intelligence leadership. In terms of what's happening now with this whole Zoom reality that is really increasingly disconcerting, I think at first, everybody did a beautiful job adapting. That's what we're designed to do, but as this goes on, there's a really frightening thing that's happening, which is it's cutting our senses off.

So I'm looking at you right now and my whole experience of you, Ryan, this just blows my mind that you and I have never met in-person. And so we have this gorgeous relationship that is really, I think probably maybe an outlier to what happens in prolonged relationships where you're just looking at somebody on a screen, because our brains are not wired to just be looking at this little box all day long. Our brains require sensory stimulation. When earlier we're talking about zooming in and zooming out, well, that's something. We're not talking about Zoom in on your screen and Zoom out, we're talking about going outside and being aware. We're animals, we are meant to be absorbing information around us.

When we were in meetings before in-person, you would like to spend time transitioning from one meeting to the next. You would have time to think about this next meeting, okay, how do I want to show up? And what should be my tone of voice? And when you step into the meeting, you look at their body language, there's all of this other stuff that we've been robbed from. And so we don't have these points of pause between meetings, which in and of itself is not a good thing. So we're just going back to back to back, but our brain is being super stressed by having to just stare forward at a screen constantly. And so I really do worry about the quality of decision making, the quality of being able to get a bigger perspective. Research shows that literally going outside and looking at a big perspective translates to them looking at your own life, looking at your own dilemmas and problems, and coming up with novel solutions and finding creativity.

If you're staring forward all the time and trying to figure out having a conversation with somebody, trying to figure out a complex problem, the chances of you coming up with a creative solution right here, like I'm staring at you intently right now, is so much less. You're so less likely to find that. And my gosh, if anything, the kinds of challenges that companies are up against right now require creativity, require novel solutions. And so it's this betwixt in between of this state of being entrapped by this new virtual reality of business, while needing to be more creative than we probably have ever been. And I really don't know. 

My personal solution, you did this by taking your team to Iceland and really getting people outside to experience. We've talked about awe and the neurology of awe and how the experience of awe on the brain then translates to whatever you want to focus on, your personal life, your business challenges. And so that expansiveness, we have to find ways as companies to invite expansiveness, the experience of expansiveness, not just the concept, but the experience of sensory integration, expansive experience within your teams, whatever that looks like, giving people time off and making them go be outside.

But I think it's just something that needs to be addressed more explicitly as a challenge to what's going to help people generate the kinds of creativity, the kinds of relationship building. It's very hard. Again, I think you and I are a little bit of outliers because of our personalities and just the kismet of our connection. I think it's very hard for people to build relationships this way.

Ryan:

It is. And it's just not a comfortable place. So I think one of the concerns, I remember reading this in HBR probably last May, productivity was the question. Showed that people worked too much from their Zoom boxes. So I think as leaders, we need to encourage not productivity, but outcomes. What needles are we trying to move? Because you can't lead people that are knowledge workers the way that people used to be led when they were factory workers, where a lot of those jobs maybe you're being replaced by machines or what have you. You're looking for exponential thinking, breakthrough creativity. You've also got to implicit everything.

So a couple of quick tactics. We can give some people some life hacks here. If you have a one-on-one and somebody is not sharing screens, do it with AirPods, go outside and do a walk. If you're having a hard conversation or you have a big problem, don't make a decision on the Zoom meeting, let it breathe. Encourage everybody to go for a walk afterwards. If you personally feel overwhelmed, this is a little hack Nora gave me the other day. If you personally feel overwhelmed, the problem that you're trying to solve is so big. Stop trying to solve it for a little while, get lost outside, go stare at something pretty. Guess what will happen? You'll come up with the answer. I guarantee you, you will come up with the answer. It will be clear to you when you're not this close to it.

Nora:

And I think also just on a company culture level for everybody who needs one hour meetings, I sometimes say necessary, but as a therapist, we've been doing 50 minute hours forever. And so it's like why not start slowly changing the culture too, we don't need back to back meetings. There's a real value. There is an immeasurable value to giving people space to be able to take that pause, to be able to transition, to be able to look outside, to be able to engage. I cannot emphasize enough this whole issue of sensory stimulation. When you talk about going outside, that's why it works, because you're engaging, your brain is firing in ways that it doesn't otherwise when you're just locked up inside a room. So I think it's really important that companies start finding ways to give people moments, to pause and engage their senses before coming back to the next meeting.

Ryan:

Yeah, it's true. So back to backs will kill you. And I'm somebody, this about me, I could run hard for a long time. It could be seven Zoom meetings in a day. I'm not as good of a husband, I'm not that good of a father, I'm not as creative, I'm a little bit tense. I don't limit them. But also the other thing I think is important is don't just give yourself 15 minutes off, give yourself a couple of hours a day and not be in a goddamn Zoom meeting. Think, do something other than it. And by the way, I don't hate Zoom as much as I sound. It's a lovely piece of technology. Full disclosure, Zoom is fine, it's what it does to us that I don't like.

Nora:

I know. It's not Zoom's fault, it's the way that we're managing it.

Ryan:

Correct.

Nora:

In many ways, Zoom deserves some sort of a Nobel Peace Prize for stepping in and not having the world economy collapse, because it allowed people to continue to have meetings and whatever, but we have to get smarter about understanding that it is a tool that we need to control better, that we come first and not just this... It becomes this thing that we're at the mercy of. And I think we do have to step up our conscious engagement of this time and what's required, because we're going to be in it for the foreseeable future.

Ryan:

Yeah. And in some ways there are planetary reasons for parts of our jobs being on Zoom. So I've worked for a company that's committed to being carbon footprint negative, which means we don't want to get on jet planes all the time.

Nora:

Exactly.

Ryan:

So it's how you use Zoom, but also recognizing that in-person plays a different role and that it doesn't always fill in a Gantt chart, that's what are the relationship plans? Get human beings to connect, to be creative. You mentioned our Iceland trip. If I was to tell my listeners that we only spent four hours a day in our week in meetings, you probably say, what the hell were they doing? Were they partying the whole time? No, four teams are hiring on all cylinders, because we went and saw volcanoes and cool things. And the creative discussions that were happening when there were no rules to the discussion. I can tell you this, I'll never get an attributable ROI on that week, but I've now got the benefit of a team who's locked in, has thought big. And those relationship investments pay back over time. 

So I think as leaders create the space for your team to get together and do things and be creative outside of the rules a little bit and find ways to do that, that don't involve going to a bar, because that's not what I mean. I don't mean go out and drink.

Nora:

No, right. No, exactly. I think this should be part of a company's strategy. How are we going to make sure that people are getting experiences that are going to keep them engaged? And you said, that was the HBR article, that engagement is beginning to really dip down. And that's because people's brains are dying. They're fried. So what can we do as a company to help put some fresh air in there and wake it up? It's smart business to be paying attention to those things.

Ryan:

And it goes back to... This is a good way to end, because we could talk for three hours, we usually do. It goes back to the same thing we started with, self awareness. If you're self aware of yourself and your team, then you'll know that it's not all about the Gantt chart. And that Zoom is a technology, not the answer to all your problems, that in-person plays a unique role given your unique culture and people, but you have to be aware of it and be intentional. Because by the way, folks, we're operating in a world where there is no goddamn playbook. So thrown off the window, like there's no playbook here.

Nora:

Yeah, there's not. And we're also writing the instructions for the generation that comes. And so let's try and leave something helpful.

Ryan:

Exactly. Oh God! Nora, you've said it all. Thank you, my friend. Everybody that's listened to you and I and Cal Barry cry is in a better place. And I honestly can't thank you enough. So I'll leave you be. Everybody, thanks for your time and tune in to the next episode.

Nora:

See you, Ryan.

[Music transition to takeaways]

Ryan:

That was a fun conversation. I think Nora and I might have been put on this earth to work together, because her thesis in psychology is like me as a human. I'm about two months back from taking our executive leadership team to Iceland, as I said in the interview, and we did four hours of meetings a day and then we were outside in nature, and I've not seen a group more vulnerable, more creative, so shit works. Patricia, what'd you think? What were your takeaways?

Patricia:

Wow, as a person she's amazing. I've heard you tell us about her and what you learned from her in the past, but I'd never heard her, and I met her and all of that, so I was so impressed. Then finding out why she's so impressive was amazing. It was a challenge for me to summarize because I could find very little that I could leave off the summary from your conversation. What I did is, instead of having a 10 tips or a dozen tips, I have six buckets of really good stuff, seven buckets of really good stuff that I want to share with you, that I want all of you to take away, because I could think of nothing in this conversation that we can't action on Monday morning. That's what Inside Insights leadership and people want to come listen to. That was a mess.

She's had a very diverse practice and she's helped all kinds of people in different situations. Today she shared with us tips to manage each of these things. I'm going to start with the first one. These are great questions, by the way, that you asked, Ryan. How is it that seemingly good, intelligent, and successful people do things that are uncharacteristic wrong or just plain dumb? It happens, right? Number one, they were smart and ambitious, but they lacked emotional intelligence that was necessary to be self-aware, which led them to lack judgment and impulse control, and they definitely had no humility. What are the actions that she recommended to these people when she spoke with them? Evolve their insight and self-awareness so that they are aware and they know what the cause and the effect of their actions are.

Strength and contexture leadership. Remember where you are and who you are and what's around you, so they can be aware of the world around them, not just themselves. Develop their individual and their team's emotional intelligence, so they each understand the role they play in the team. Not just the person that comes up with a strategy, but the person that helps things evolve. Then the last two were great and I think you said one of these. Unlearn the damaging habits so that you can learn the triggers to frustration. That was fantastic because sometimes there are things that you must unlearn. It's as simple as that, so that you can do that.

Second bucket. What are the universal skills critical to a leader's success, you asked her. You said, what are the constants that people should keep in mind, and she gave us six.

Emotional intelligence, absolutely the first one. It's the most important umbrella because what's underneath that umbrella is the ability to listen, to have curiosity about other people's views. It's important. Second one is to manage your own emotions. Now we come to the situations with our own baggage and we have to be aware of what triggers us, what makes us react versus what helps us be able to pause and think and be deliberate about our actions. We all have those buttons, just be aware of where yours are. The third one, a high level of self-awareness helps you look at yourself in context so that you know that, if I'm in this context, I behave in this way, but if I'm in another context, I behave in another way. During the interview, you were all professional and then your son came in. You had to juggle yourself and you had to juggle both circumstances.

The fourth one, know that you're going to have to have difficult conversations with people. But it's important to have the conversation yet, not leave that person feeling deflated. Make them feel inspired to change, to get better. To know what's coming after they get better. Fifth one is seeing the big picture, but also being able to zoom into the details. Having that flexibility as a leader, to go back and forth so that you can see both the large picture and the details. The forest and the trees. The last universal skill is engaging with the world holistically. Which is slightly different from being able to zoom and zoom out. It's about making you, as a leader, sensitive and inspiring, so people can look to you to help get things done. That was a big bucket. Every single one of those touched me.

Third big bucket. You were really on her, it was great. What are some go to steps to get somebody more emotionally aware of their emotional triggers? Now that's a lot of emotions in there, but you said, give us...

Ryan:

Very emotional.

Patricia:

…Give us a shortcut, give us advice on where to start. Because at the end of the day, that's what people want to know, where do I start? I love the first one, be brave. She only said three. Be brave. It takes courage to develop self-awareness and that being brave involves being vulnerable and leaving aside your pride.

The second one of the go-to steps, the shortcuts, is to get honest feedback about your leadership. Look at yourself, evaluate yourself, and then get 360 feedback and then compare the two. Oh my God, I've done that, wow. What an amazing journey that is because that's what's going to be able to shed light on the stories you tell yourself about yourself. Some of them may be true. Many of them are not.

The third shortcut is, watch your behavior and discover the patterns. We are all creatures of habit. Pay attention to your response to people and other people's response to you. What is happening in your leadership? Examine the cause, and then going back to what you said in the first bucket, unlearn so that you can learn.

Fourth bucket. This one was so dead on, because you asked her, okay, so the world isn't perfect, how does a leader that's working in a psychologically unsafe environment, create the space to be vulnerable? Oh my God, I'm sure that the people listening, many of them are like, that's me, that's me. That's important to know. She said start small. Don't boil the ocean, I think you said that, don't boil the ocean. Go where there's momentum. What does that mean? Relationships happen one on one, so changing culture often starts with just the one-on-ones. Find a place to have honest, real conversations one on one, so that people know that you can have these vulnerable conversations. They can show their weaknesses, they can show their doubts and they can be okay. Take that very small step and then build on that. It seems so simple and people might think that's hard, but if you only think about what meetings I have that are one on ones and let's change those, that's a great place to start. Don't you think?

Ryan:

It is. For me personally, one of the things that I had to do was, it's not even the one-on-ones, those are sort of easy for me, it was bigger settings and understanding, what are the things? I'm a super emotional person, as you know, and what are the things that trigger emotions without me being in control of them? It was a huge journey to identify the things, and I didn't really get into this in too much detail, but I did this for about eight months till I learned muscles. You eventually build muscles. What do I need to get out of this meeting? What do I need to assert? And that way you show up with a different set of intentions.

It sounds cheesy, but so many of us are running from thing to thing all day. We don't give ourselves the 15 minutes in between to be like, all right, what just happened? Great. I processed that. What's about to happen? What do I need to be like? What version of me needs to be there? Am I, in my case, the boss? Am I the supporter? Am I the coach? Am I pushing people because they're not meeting expectations? And I think unless you're in control of your emotions, they will control you.

Particularly in big companies, I was saying this to Julio, who's a great friend of mine, great friend of yours, about you know what, we can't control the environment our customers operate in. It's also not what they pay us to do. We also can't take it personally. The way they react is a byproduct of the situation that they're in. So having the ability to turn that on its head and be like, okay, where are they actually coming from, helps you process and handle them better. It's not a vendor client thing, it's as a business partner, as a father. Honestly as a fucking human being, right?

Patricia:

Yes, who do I need to be for them today? I remember when I was on the other side, not the dark side, the agency side, but on the CPG side, it was all about making relationships with my partners that helped me get through the day when the environment in the office was too much for me. I relied on them so much. But let me finish. Because that is the sixth bucket, but I'm on bucket five.

Ryan:

Keep going girlfriend, you just got me excited.

Patricia:

We're both excited about this topic. So if bucket four was all about how to work in a psychologically unsafe environment, I'm going to continue that one. But I did separate them, because bucket five is all about how people in an unsafe environment give their boss feedback. Sometimes if you don't give the feedback, you're going to burst. And you know that giving feedback is something that's absolutely needed, but giving the feedback in the wrong way at the wrong time is worse than not giving feedback at all. What Dr. Nora said is, a difficult conversation is best approached starting with yourself from a position of humility. That's amazing. Don't go in there being accusatory. Keep the focus on what you're trying to accomplish. I talk about a quote, I, as your direct report, really want to grow and want to move this agenda forward, but I'm frustrated, I'm coming to you for some insight.

This is not going to be accusatory and it's not going to be touchy feely. It's going to be factual, this is what's going on with me. That way you're not going to make them defensive. Make it all about the job to be done and the role that you're playing in getting this job done and how much you want to get the job done and act as if the frustrating obstacles are not personal, even if you think they are. And you said something really important, anchor the conversation in a common goal versus attacking. That was really good.

Ryan:

I think that's key, what is the purpose [inaudible 00:15:07]? And this is one of the tensions. In our business, we've got a leadership framework that I hold our leaders very accountable to. We just actually rolled it out this year. One of the tensions is establishing an ambitious growth vision. The next bullet point is to foster psychological safety. You might say those things are at odds. We're a for-profit business that's growing real fast. This isn't a therapy hour. Although, I got a lot of time for therapy, by the way. If you can afford it, do it. Seriously. But the reason why psychological safety links to ambitious growth is, if you're able to have a really hard conversation with someone as a human and identify where shared goals do and don't exist, you can go faster.

It's not to sit in a circle and do hippie dippy things. It's actually because you can connect with people on a different level, understand when your purpose is aligned or when it's misaligned. And things change, right? You could enter into a work relationship with the best of intentions and someone's purpose may have changed, their motivations may have changed, what have you. Having that vulnerability with other people is key. I think the thing you said there is so important, be vulnerable with yourself, be self-aware. I can't tell you how many people I work with who have zero self-awareness. Some of it is because they've got masks and armor, but we talked about us in the interview, some of this is societal, right? Kids are told "because I said so'' when they're seven and so curiosity gets beaten out of them.

You should hear some of the conversations I have with my six year old. I talk to him like he's a 40 year old man, because he's curious, he wants to know the answer. I'm not going to bullshit the kid. I want to foster that curiosity. I think in business, we don't prioritize curiosity and learning. We prioritize production. 90% of the shit we launch fails. Imagine if we stopped and asked a few more questions, we'd go a lot faster. I think it's something that, in the software product development space, you see a lot of 'product discovery is more important than product delivery' because if you understand the customer's problem, well then it's easy to innovate a solution.

Patricia:

That was a perfect segue into bucket number six. Which are the last of the big buckets. Number seven is a bonus.

Ryan:

Bonus, I love it.

Patricia:

Number six bucket, emotional intelligence versus emotions and business. This is huge because you just said that hippie dippie love stuff or that, it depends on how you call it, but emotional intelligence is not about that. Sometimes it may not be appropriate to look for emotional gratification from your work or from your boss or from your team. Emotional intelligence is not about that. It's being aware of your own baggage and knowing how to manage your emotions so that they don't manage you. emotions, as you said, are not the same as passions. Passions have every right to be at the workspace, emotions need to be understood and channeled appropriately so that you can be passionate, but in control so you can focus on the work objectives.

As a leader, you're facilitating and creating a space where successful work can happen. It's not just the work, it's the personal and professional growth of your team. It takes maturity to be a good leader. Maturity to know that things are not perfect, that people are not perfect. We have to find the gifts of imperfection, I think was the phrase that the two of you used, and you have to hold the space for people to fail. Because if you're not failing, you're not innovating.

Ryan:

Hundred percent.

Patricia:

Exactly. Build in those systems, you said, that are sustainable, that are built on adaptability, Nora said. Part of adaptability is failing, knowing where the weak spots are and then building from those. Adjusting the way, according to the weak spots. It's not about the chain being only as strong as the weak point. Yeah, that's true. The chain is strong. End of sentence. Because you're going to figure out how to adapt if it breaks. That's what's going to make that chain stronger.

There's a culture, and I don't remember the culture so I'm not even going to try to remember it, but instead of throwing away vases when they break or instead of trying to fix them in a way that the marks of where the pieces get joined are not visible, because there's a way of doing that too, they take the vase and they put the glue with color, a contrasting color, so that the lines where the break was are visible because it makes a more beautiful piece of art. You're able to put stronger glue and more visible glue if you're not worrying about being invisible. That's a beautiful learning that fits exactly what this bucket is. Perfection is not the goal. It's working with the imperfection and finding the weak spots to grow more. That's amazing.

Ryan:

Honestly, perfectly polished people bore me, too. We're all flawed, like what the hell.

Patricia:

I don't have the first one yet. I've met some people who try to pretend. Now, ready for the bonus?

Ryan:

We're ready for the bonus.

Patricia:

I love the spin the two of you ended up with. We've just been talking about Nora and then the six buckets of absolute gold that she's given us. It's all about awareness and knowing who you are and knowing the people around you and as a leader being able to foster and build an environment. Well, let's turn all of those six buckets that we just learned to this bonus one and understand that we have just survived quote unquote, or evolved quote unquote, through a pandemic as a world. Zoom was a large part of being able to continue business as usual, as much as possible.

Like any good tool, like any tool, like anything, whether it be a bike, a car, roller skates, a good knife, if you don't use things properly, they're going to be bad. This is all about not blaming Zoom, but understanding that if you're a leader with high emotional intelligence, you have to be able to recognize some things. After the pandemic, after working 24/7, after being home alone with your family, things happen. What are the tips to making sure that you're going to be a leader with high emotional intelligence that loves Zoom or works within Zoom? Here we go. Number one, take breaks between meetings so that you can just ponder what you just met about and ponder what you're about to meet so that you can breathe or go to the bathroom.

Number two, during the day, go outside, look around, and breathe. Some people, myself included, find that the whole day passed that I didn't see, I saw the window that there was sun, and then there was no sun. That's not healthy. Don't do that.

Ryan:

No, it's not. It's not cool. Can't do it.

Patricia:

Number three, be aware of energy levels. Yours, the teams, each individual member of the teams, the meeting, be aware of it and be able to say, okay, we're not getting somewhere, let's stop, let's do something different.

Number four, encourage outcome, not productivity. You just said that. We're not going to be task masters. We have to look for the outcome, not just produce, produce, produce. We're not punching a time clock here. Do virtual one-on-ones while walking outside. You and I do our walks sometimes we get to do it in person. Sometimes we get to do it virtually. If you're stuck with a problem, stop, go outside. Sensing a pattern here, Ryan? Do 20 minute meetings, not 30 minute meetings. Or do 50 minute meetings, not one hour meetings. Maybe 25, I'll accept. But don't have to use the full hour, you don't.

The last one, I saved the best for last. Make it part of your business strategy to make sure people are getting engaged. People's brains are dying because they're fried. Help them come back, reenergized, refreshed. With that I say, thank you, Nora and thank you, Ryan.

Ryan:

That was so fun. Nora, love you to pieces, thank you for everything. I liked point three. I'll tell you a story. I had a big topic for our leadership team last week, and did you know that I canceled it? Because everybody was burnt out and tired, we actually did self coaching. Way more productive than jamming the topic through, cause when we talked about the topic the next week, guess what happened? They were ready, very different. 

Patricia:

Exactly. I did something similar with my offsite for C.T. Recently, last week. I didn't have time on the agenda, I just had topics. These are the topics and this is an order of priority. Let's work on this. It was great. Walking, and we kept talking while we were walking, about personal things or not. It was great. It was amazing.

Ryan:

I love it. This was a fun episode. I appreciate my colleagues letting me do it and running with my crazy ideas. We got two episodes left. Our next episode is with Jennifer Picard from Pernod Ricard, an interesting rhyme there, I didn't know that was going to rhyme. Jennifer has done more to democratize insights than, and I'm going to say this bold statement, anybody else I know in the consumer insights industry, period. Nobody else has democratized insights more than this woman has in a year. She's made it so that marketers are using insights to prove tools, to test their ads in stride so they can make better ads. Guess what insights people get to do, Patricia? Be insights people.

I can't wait to share this story with y'all. Please don't miss it. Subscribe. Please rate us five stars, help more, friends. Get it? Tell your friends. Tune in to Jen's episode. Seriously, it's going to make you a little uncomfortable, but I will remind you, insights people, you didn't become a market research person to manage projects all day, did you? You love consumers. You love psychology. You love marketing science. Technology, if you use it right, will let you do that all day. Jen's going to show you how next episode, I can't wait to share it with you. Thank you, Patricia. Thank you, Kelsey. Thank you, Judith. Thank you, Emma. Thank you to our listeners. Love you to pieces. Happy Thanksgiving, everybody.

Patricia:

Chowder.