Elaine Rodrigo: Embracing the twists & turns of life

Ryan Barry:

Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, children of all ages, welcome to Inside Insights, a podcast powered by Zappi, where we talk about change from all angles. There's change all around us and how we work, how we grow, how we learn and how businesses connect with the cultures that they want to integrate with. And this is a unique opportunity for us to interview folks who are covering change and driving change in their respective disciplines from all angles. I'm joined here, today, by my good friend and co host, Babita Earle. Hi, Babita.

Babita Earle:

Hello, Ryan, how are you on this fine Tuesday?

Ryan:

It is a winter's day. It's brisk and chilly. And as you know, my office doesn't get the heat that well. So, I have a coat on inside my home at the moment. You might say, "Get a space heater or turn the heat on," and I don't want to do those things.

Babita:

I know.

Ryan:

And it's Friday when we're recording this. Happy Friday.

Babita:

And to you, Happy Friday. I love Fridays. This whole working from home thing, by the end of the week you think, "I need to leave this room, which is my study stroke office and not come back into it until Monday". 

Ryan:

For sure, and we're lucky you and I both have kind of hidden spaces that we can leave. I got a shout out to everybody who's working at their kitchen table, bedroom bureau, their coffee table. I hope you find a way to separate. If you need any advice on that, hit us up, we'll connect you with somebody who's navigating it, but we are a bit spoiled.

So, Babita, I have a question before we talk about our interview. Most people have Friday night rituals or things that they like to do.

Babita:

Yeah.

Ryan:

So take me through Friday night at the Earl house. What's the agenda like?

Babita:

Well, during the day, I think about, "what drink am I going to have tonight, which bottle of wine or a bottle of bubbly?" And then I like to tidy up, which I have a bit of OCD. And then on a Friday night, myself and my daughters will do a Tik Tok video. So the last few Fridays we've been doing various Tik Tok videos, which they think is hilarious and I love doing it. So that's the Friday night ritual and then we'll get a takeaway and just chill.

Ryan:

Wow!

Babita:

That's our Friday night. What about yours?

Ryan:

Well, for those who don't know, Babita has got some moves on the dance floor. That song that had 'moves like Jagger' was meant to be 'moves like Babita', she's got it going on the dance floor, so her daughters are very lucky. So as you know, I like to do nothing on the weekends, as much as possible. So my family, on Friday nights, we get pizza and then we watch a movie and we're not paying attention to parental guidance. We're letting our kids watch the Harry Potter films and today I think we're on number seven. So I'm watching a Harry Potter film each Friday, which is kind of funny because it brings Jillian and I back to when Harry Potter was actually out.

Babita:

Yeah.

Ryan:

So we're gonna make cookies, eat pizza and watch a movie and, similar to you, have a few drinks. For us, it's a bottle of red wine to ground us into the sanity and relaxation of the weekend.

So Babita, we've got a high profile, heavy hitting insights leader today on our podcast. Good friend of ours, partner of ours. Legend. Talk to us about who we're interviewing, I'm pumped to get into it.

Babita:

Yes we do and you've described her very appropriately. So I had the pleasure of talking to Elaine Rodrigo. She is one of the sort of celebrities, I would say, of the insights world and she's chief insights analytics officer at RB. As you said, Elaine is a friend and a very good partner of ours. I remember meeting her, I mean, I've always heard of Elaine, I've seen her present conferences, we're always on the same circuit.

And this was about a year and a half ago, I think. We ended up having dinner next to each other, and we just talked and talked all night. We've got so much in common, children the same age, our love for champagne, and we just absolutely hit it off, and ever since then we've been great friends. She's part of the wire exec forum as well. So yeah, this conversation was really good. I think we should just go straight into it and then you can tell me what you think of it afterwards?

Ryan:

I agree, what are we waiting for?

Babita:

Yeah, let's do it.

[Music transition to interview]

Babita Earle:

Hello listeners, today, I have the real pleasure of talking to a friend, and somebody who I think has so far had an amazing career, and I'm really sort of chuffed that she's found the time in their busy diary to talk to us today. So I'd like to introduce you to Elaine Rodrigo, who is Chief Insights and Analytics officer at Reckitt. Hi, Elaine. How are you?

Elaine Rodrigo:

Okay, well thank you. Hi, Babita. Happy to be here.

Babita:

Elaine, it's really cool that you've been able to join us. I know how busy you are, and being in the role that you're in. Our podcast is really around bringing inspirational stories to our listeners around case studies of different careers. And you, you're in a really, really big position at Reckitt. You have a C-suite role, Chief Insights and Analytics Officer, which you started. When did you start that? 

Elaine:

Yeah. Actually it's almost coming up to a year. Almost a year, time flies.

Babita:

Wow. And I bet you weren't expecting to be thrown into this role in the middle of a pandemic. How's life been for you, given the situation that we're in? It must be really, really hectic and really trying, because I know you've also moved countries as well, haven't you?

Elaine:

Yes. I know. It's one of those things where I think it was like a perfect storm, right? So I'm moving countries, I'm moving companies, and then there's also this pandemic going on at the same time and working in Reckitt Benckiser with the brands that we have. We found ourselves at the heart of it from January this year. So yeah, you're right about two months in.

This is where I remember trying to move a family, and trying to commute and manage my career and family across from Paris to London, and then moving as well, changing companies. Although in some cases, in this case, it's like coming home, because it is a company that I used to work for a long time ago. So that helped a bit, but still a company also going through a lot of change within the organization for the better, to set ourselves up, and organize ourselves in a better way for the future.

And then thirdly, I guess this whole COVID situation that just kind of came from the West. So it became like this, to some extent like a perfect storm, but out of these situations, I think I've mentioned this before to you. So I'm half Chinese, and in Chinese, the word crisis, it's made up of two characters. So crisis in Chinese is weighty. And one of the words actually means danger and the other one means opportunity.

So in every situation like this, there is a silver lining, I suppose, that comes out of it, because some things, yes, it's complex, but I feel like kind of out of this situation, as well as giving me an opportunity to kind of supercharge the way that we want to look at Insights and we want to have a seat at the table within Reckitt.

So I would not ask for this situation again, but I would say, considering all this, being able after a year to come out of it, having driven some of the things that we have been able to within Reckitt, and also having that real trust and support of senior leadership within the company, is something I'm very grateful for.

Babita:

Yeah. It's interesting that you do, and I didn't know that the word crisis has that sort of a ying and yang approach to it. And I totally believe in that. When we went into lockdown earlier this year, it was almost like, "Okay, we've got time. Let's use this time to fix things and do things that perhaps we wouldn't have the space and time to think." And I'd like to dig into that change at your drive in, and also how you've managed through the pandemic, but I also want to dig into your career as well, focus where you've reached in your role.

Because it may not be everybody's ambition, but if you're somebody just embarking on your career, you just think, "Oh my God, that just seems so unachievable. How did Elaine get there?" So I'm going to take you back, and you're one of these people who knows exactly where she's going. And you've had many roles in the FMCG space. So tell us about your career and your path and your decisions that you made to where you've got to, because I think that would be really interesting for people to hear.

Elaine:

Sure, sure. And I'm happy to share my story and my journey, because sometimes people ask me like, how does it go from Singapore, I guess, and in the UK, end up in Paris, leading a function like this. So I'll tell you that this is like taking me back 25 years or more really, almost 30 years. My approach, because I didn't think about it like this at that time, but as I frame it up, it's really three things. I think firstly, I've always been ambitious. So I've always had an ambition about where I want to be. It's like, where do I want to be when I grow up? So I've always had an ambition.

But then after that, to couple that with self-awareness of, what exactly are you good at? What do you actually love doing? What are you not good? Not like doing as well? To try and almost find that sweet spot there, between what you're good at and what you love doing. And fortunately for me, this is not simple for everybody, what I'm good at and what I love doing, et cetera.

There was something that came together, because I know people, for example, really good at doing something, but actually don't enjoy it at all. So the kind of self-awareness, I think, of yourself and within there, trying to find almost what would be my point of difference. So from a very young age, even before I started my career, I was thinking, "There are going to be thousands of people, and what would be different about me."

And then the last thing is that she picked it up, Babita. I always have a plan, always. And I think this is not like ... And I'm deliberate about it. So I have a short-term plan, a mid-term plan, and a long-term plan. But the thing is, over the years that we went to that was also kind of flexed. I think I would say I was much more rigid about my plan, much more linear in early stages of my career.

And as I went along, I realized I had to be much more flexible around my plan. So it's almost like, I plan the way my destination is and how I kind of work towards it. And so, I'm from Singapore originally, but I knew I wanted to have an international career. So I decided to go overseas for university. By the way, we have great universities, great education system in Singapore, but I just wanted to experience something different.

So I went to Australia, and I studied marketing. It's like asking, "What do I want to be?" So my ambition was to have an international career. I knew this is like, you're like 19, 20 years old. All I knew is I wanted to have an international career, and I wanted to be like somebody in this kind of senior corporate leadership position. I didn't really know what it was. Back then it was called climbing the corporate ladder, if I remember. That's all I knew. But I had no idea. I knew that that was my ambition. Then after that kind of self-awareness, I studied marketing. And after I finished my first degree, I realized I didn't actually want to do marketing.

I didn't want to manage the four P's and all that, but I really, really loved the knowledge part of it. Anything to do with knowledge, I left my market research module, I left my strategic marketing module. I was just very curious, and especially my thinking, I liked growth. 

So therefore, I started thinking what's different about me, is if I wanted to have an international career coming from Singapore, obviously being able to speak English and being able to kind of operate in a global environment. But actually I speak Chinese. So I felt like that would be something that would be different.

So that's why I put a plan in place as I kind of went along to say, at each stage of my journey, when I did a PhD to start off with, that I would do it on China, for example, and I started thinking, okay, I've got it, not this a bit. Or if I wanted to be in that knowledge space, it probably meant a career like much more in strategic consultancy or research or in marketing.

So I kind of explored a research degree. That was just kind of right at the beginning where it's like taking me back almost like literally 30 years. So ambition, self-awareness and being very deliberate about my plan.

Babita:

Yeah. They're really good three pillars. But I must admit it's super impressive how much rigor you've given to your thinking, and can be quite daunting for some people. And I know you're one of those rare individuals that decided to choose this industry. And we know about so many people that ... And we were having this conversation that people just fall into our industry. And I think we have a challenge overall, to get more diverse talent and to really show our industry for what it does and the kind of things that you're doing as a team within Reckitt. 

So obviously you've had your career really well marked out. It must've been some things that have gone wrong along the way. So what are those? Come on, share them, and did you then learn from them?

Elaine:

No, of course. For sure. So if you think about it, as I said, what I learned at the beginning, I mean, I made a plan, but it was quite a rigid plan. I mean, it's good to plan. When you have a plan, you also have to be able to be a little bit flexible around it. I think that was one thing that I learned. I didn't have any disasters, I would say, in that sense, but I learned over time, because I was putting too much pressure on myself.

And at the end of the day, that's something you do learn. Like I was setting myself targets like, I have to be a director by the time I'm 30, then I have to do this and I have to do this. And sometimes you don't. These are just self-imposed kinds of targets. And you've got to be flexible because things happen. Life happens. You've got to manage it as you go along.

So I would say, it's probably taken me longer to get where I am. And I always knew I wanted to get here. It's taken me longer to get here, but it's okay. Because once again, it was a deliberate decision, and actually my plan adapted to changes in your family and things that are going along the way. Becoming a parent, it changes things. 

So I had lots of leaps. And I did manage to hit my target in becoming a director by age 30. But then after that, I told myself, "Okay, now you're here, but that doesn't mean this is going to continue this way. Certainly, you have to give yourself time to develop yourself and stuff like that. And give yourself time to go deep, you go wide as well, and to kind of almost not be too impatient.

So I had to learn that. And then I would say the biggest learning for me, is when you're in this industry, think about, I said, what we're good at, what we do. And then when you're trying to actually manage life in a corporate world, what do we do really well? I mean, why do we do what we do? We love Insights, we live data. We love bringing results and driving that all in a very kind of objective way.

But the thing is, once you get to a certain level of leadership, in order to actually land your thinking and make impact, it's less about just the what and about the how, because this is when other political agendas, changes that are going on in the organization, personalities, all that comes into play.

And very early on, I kind of misjudged that, how important that would be versus, but I'm bringing the objective consumer point of view. So because I'm bringing that, people should just sign up for it. And I think learning how to balance that. So I had some dramatic failures in the beginning in terms of trying to land that, but you learn. And that's when I realized that how is so important, not just the words.

Babita:

Yeah. So you've been in quite a few sort of client side roles. Obviously you were at Reckitt some years ago, Mondelez, and then Danone and back at Reckitt. How has the role of an Insights' professional changed over that time? And what do you think ... I mean, you've talked about the what and how, and I totally agree with that. It's managing your stakeholders and having that seat at the table. So how did it change what kinds of skills are really, really important for Insights' professionals moving forward to have a seat at the table and to be future proof?

Elaine:

Sure. Well, let's just even talk about the name of the function. So I've been doing this for 23 years. I started off as a market research manager. So it was a market research function, And then after that, I was in consumer insights and strategy.

So there's a shift now. We're going away from, researchers are kind of doing the projects and doing them well to extract the insights. So then it'd be the whole composition was like insight to action. You might remember this, where leaders it's like dating us, but taking it back to Dan, it's like going from research report to insights, and then from insights to action. So that was when the whole industry got rebranded as Insights.

Then after that, strategy. So it wasn't just insights to action, but then it was about strategic thinking. And then now, I lead a group called Insights and Analytics, because over the last three to five years, this huge advent of data and digital, and these two kind of areas of expertise, which may be kind of parallel, but now they've kind of come together.

So you see it evolving over time just in terms of what we do. But when you talk about skill sets, I think what's really important is to really stay ahead of the curve in terms of understanding why I say we have to constantly reinvent ourselves. So that's what I tell people, because if you think about it now. None of us technically, can call ourselves digitally native, because I mean, I don't know about you. When I was growing up, the internet didn't exist.

Babita:

I remember paper tables. Yeah… 

Elaine:

Exactly. But you can be digitally fluent. So I believe in two things. It's like two analogies. There's always these conversations about unicorns. And you want all these whole brain people, who know art and science and whatnot. And you don't want to, I think you do, but I believe.

I heard this thing, and I'll quote somebody else. This is not me who came up with it, but I love the idea, because he said ... Actually, it's not about unicorns, but it's about horses who can grow horns. And it's true because, do you know what I mean? This idea of a unicorn just feels like we're all channel looped but this thing, does it exist really? But actually, we can all get there.

So I think it's about understanding once again, what is needed. For myself, trying to stay kind of one step ahead of the curve. You talked about us being in Insights. You should imagine if we want to be in this industry, we should at least be insightful. And also to some extent, have some level of foresight about what is to come and try to anticipate.

So I didn't know anything about digital or DLB or an API, or anything like that at first. I had to Google all those terms the first time I was in a meeting. But it's okay because you learn. Then that's my second analogy that I like to use is called eating an elephant in chunks, which is, when you first tackle something really big, it just looks so daunting. But if you just take it one step at a time, and I've heard it before you know it, you won't even realize it, but you know so much more and you make so much progress.

So my thing for myself and my team is always to try to enable people to see obviously the destination, but then start somewhere. 

Babita:

Yeah. And that's where processes like agile processes are really beneficial, because you sort of start with your small steps and you keep on improving and iterating and learning, and not fearing getting things wrong, because as you say, getting things wrong are probably the most valuable learning experiences that you're going to have.

And that journey, you're right, we have to keep on reinventing ourselves. So let's talk about your current role. Iit feels like you've sort of reached the pinnacle of your career, where you've got a chief in your job title. So you're in a sweet, sweet role. What are the pressures that come with that? Because as you said, if you go back 30 years or whatever, you've had this career path, and this is ultimately where you're headed. So I'd just like to get a sense of how that role is manifesting itself. And then, let's talk a bit about what you're trying to do within Reckitt in this position.

Elaine:

Sure. I guess the question goes back to, firstly, why, why did I actually want to do this role? And there are two things. One was, I started in Reckitt almost 20 years ago, and as a young research manager. So my dream and ambition was to be sitting in this seat, almost 20 years ago, which is why in a way it's really nice for myself, but actually also my colleagues, my manager, because we were all here back then.

So it feels like this kind of almost actualization of this dream that you had, when you were just a young researcher. That was actually ambition. But it's like so much more. Back then, I just wanted to be at the top, but now it's different reasons, and it really comes down to purpose. And purpose around what? There's purpose around the impact that you can make in the world, for example, through the organization that you're with, and then the impact that you have on people. People you work with, but also from an industry or a function perspective. I mean, I've been in the industry a long time.

So you see I have a certain fondness for our industry and where we are going and how we are transforming ourselves. So being in a role like this, actually allows me to do both those things. So I managed to, almost to some extent, live my own purpose, my own ambition, but my purpose is to help people in some way, and the purpose of Reckitt. So we're a company which is about hygiene, health, nutrition. So it's like a real kind of fit for my own personal purpose as well, what I want to do in the world. And then at the same time, from a kind of impact on people.

I work with thousands of people across the organization. 2000 marketers to start off with, but infusing them with putting consumers first, enabling them and empowering them to win in today's data-driven world. And almost like crafting the next generation of marketers, for me, it's something very important within the industry as well, being in a position where, always being able to transform what we're doing in this industry. Leading from within, I guess to some extent, is something that I also really value.

So those are some of the reasons why I wanted to do it. The prejudice, yeah, for sure they are precious. And it's quite interesting, because certainly as you say, it's like you kind of almost get what you hope for, but there are things that come with it. So I must say, you don't pick them when, I'm trying to mention like a town hall, and you go see what goes on stage, and then somebody would ask this question, "So what keeps you up at night?" And that was just a way of asking a question, so people would tell you what was kind of really on their mind at that point in time, but now I really get it. It's like, what keeps you up at night?

Babita:

And what keeps you up at night?

Elaine:

Yeah. What keeps me up at night? I mean, a few things. One is obviously, organization this year. We're on the right side of consumer demand, because of respect. Just honestly, just trying to help people. So just trying to keep up with the pace. The pace is incredible. It's really accelerated. So there's so much going on, but how can we continue to do what we do in order to actually meet that consumer demand, to try to kind of live our purpose. So that's one part of it.

Another part of it, which is a daily thing, is obviously about managing people. You kind of put consumers first, but you also try to put people first.

And that, I take very seriously in terms of my people, where they are. And sometimes you can't go as fast as you want to. It's also been a strange year. So there's that, managing the organization. Not just around what is the right kind of structuring, making sure that people are in jobs that are right for them, and then at the same time, thinking about the future. So what are the competencies and skill sets that's required?

So I would say there is a lot going on. Not that I don't know what that plus fights pressures, but you're writing that, definitely, there's a lot of weight on your mind at any point in time, and they're all important, to some extent.

Babita:

So when we talk about transformation, because you talked about that, it's the transformation that you want to drive. And obviously, we talked about people, but we work with many organizations around digital transformation. What's Reckitt's view around that topic? And what does digital transformation mean for you? Where does that appear in your priorities, I guess?

Elaine:

Yeah. Obviously it's really high on the priority list, just like with everybody else. In some organizations, you see actually the digital and data transformation running parallel to a CMI organization, because I suppose to some extent in some organizations, in order to kind of get that and supercharge that, they feel that there needs to be focus.

And you will see that. I mean, I hear it a lot when I go to a CMI …people ask me questions about almost all the pressures coming from this kind of classical, I hate that word, but the CMI world from data and analytics. So my perspective though, is I don't see this. I don't see this challenge. I see altogether. I see it as an opportunity, but it's how you want to approach it. So for example, if anybody in the industry did not get the memo like four to five years ago, there's a digital and data transformation, then okay.

But I was in a round table some months ago where somebody asked me whether I felt that the COVID situation at the moment was creating and bringing digital and data disruption to our industry. And my response was, if you didn't get it, if we, not you, but we didn't get that memo four to five years ago, it's nothing to do with COVID. It's just that I think the current situation is accelerating it. It's supercharging it. 

But then secondly, it's a skill set. The skill sets that everybody needs. We have been on a journey anyway within Reckitt, to actually dial up the digital skill sets. It's not as if I was the one to come up with the idea. It's been going on now for a couple of years. And what I've done, at least within my team when I came in, and as we know, because we work together on some of this Babita, specifically with Zappi, is when I came in, I saw that the good news was that Reckitt was already on the journey to what's this digital ideation of Insights.

Some of the things around agile automated tools, social listening. It's already there. But the difference was that it was only in a few places. So there were these sparks in some businesses. And what I've done or what I intend to do coming in, is to scale it.

So what we're doing now, is we're scaling the tools that we believe are right for this digital data transformation, and putting it all in one place. So the first thing is to put it in one place and make it accessible to everybody. And then there's a scale up. There's a scale up around people using it, and then this kind of deployment and pushing it within the organization.

Babita:

Yeah. I think it's that saying, you can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. So you can put these platforms and tools in place, but it's how, as a leader, you are thinking about building the confidence of your teams to basically work in a different way.

So it's that sort of how these tools can change you as an Insight professional and how you can be a professional that thinks about foresight and about strategy. So taking your team on that journey, I think is a really hard thing to do. And how are you approaching that, because it's technology, but it's the people, and it's doing that at scale, which is not an easy thing to do?

Elaine:

Yeah. And what you see is, the principles are the same, but sometimes the phasing is different. So if I think back to my previous role, there was this huge disruption coming from within the organization from senior stakeholders at the start of 2017, about the need for the Insights organization to evolve. But the thing is that there was a huge message coming from senior leadership.

It was very disruptive, but I could come in, I tend to first speak to everybody about this. So what happens, I noticed, the first time you talk about this, about a third of the people just kind of just jump on. So there'll be a third who says, "I'm in, and I'm just going to go." And they just kind of take it and they just run with it. And then there's another third who are like, "I'm just going to watch this a little bit," or "I kind of want to, but I do know how."

And then there's a third who sometimes never gets there, just roughly. But when I was in my previous role, it was like I had the six to 12 month window. Let's say, when I could kind of set them, this is what? This is the ambition, this is right. So I had time for people to get onboard. And then I had time to skill up with people as well. So that eventually I would say, it was probably almost two years in, to me joining the organization. 

So then I look at my situation today, just because of everything that's going on, also different company, different culture, it's almost like we just go in. 

So for me, seizing the moment is really important, because that moment doesn't always come by. And then you have to try to figure out the best way to do it. And I think fortunately for me, I would say in Reckitt’s, the culture of this company's such that people just kind of just pick things up and run with it. 

So you talked about the push and the pull. And this is the power of scale. You get scale when people kind of want to do it. And the interesting thing is, in today's world, with a lot of tools that we have, you can see. So I could see, for example, while I was speaking, we had a big global marketing conference two weeks ago that was completely virtual. First time we'd done that, but we managed. There were over 2000 people around the world who were connected. And in the one hour that I was speaking, I introduced a number of tools, gave people access.

One of those got 305 sign-ons while I was still speaking, and everyone got a hundred over. So it went up by six to 10 times of usage. This is good. Now the thing is, how do you keep that going? Because we don't want a huge leap. And the idea is you would land high in how we continue to drive this, but it's a good sign. I think, at least, that people were interested.

Babita:

Yeah. And it's that continuing to show value through building momentum and scale, and business value, how do these decisions and this strategy help you make smart decisions. And that's ultimately, that's the important piece, isn't it? So I'm really interested to see how that's going to evolve for you guys.

So let's just take it back a little bit in terms of, outside job. We're in COVID, and it's not been great, has that? I mean, life has not been good. What's the first thing you're going to do when we come out of this and this vaccine that proves to be effective? What's the thing that you're most missing Elaine. And I think I could probably answer this question for you, in the conversations that we've had.

Elaine:

I think. So I was going to say, is it work or is it personal? But it's both, right? And all of it has to do with just meeting with people again in more than six or more than two, or else at my house. So just getting people together. So I'll tell you two things. Within my job remit, I have so many members of my team who I only know like this. I only know them virtually. I need to be great, but actually we've never met face to face, and I would love for us to be able to get together and talk about all the things that we've been talking about.

But I'll celebrate, I suppose, how well as well, and how hard everybody has worked and done well this year, but also kind of really be together as we serve, craft our vision for the future. So that's to that. And personally, I just can't wait. I just need a party on the beach with like 50 people, lots of them, probably somewhere warm, Bali, wherever we can go. You would be one of those 50 people I'd be with.

Babita:

Yeah. I would definitely be there. I can't wait for us to be able to do that again, because there's a lot that we've taken for granted that I don't think we will take for granted moving forward, but the people connection is absolutely the key thing. But I also do think, if there were two, three learnings that you had from the current situation that you think you will take forth, because we go back to this word crisis, there's a negative, but there's also a positive. What are the two or three positives that you will then take forward when we come out of the situation that we're in?

Elaine:

Yeah. I think there are two things. One of them is obviously, we've really supercharged the way we're looking at digital and data and using them. We were starting to do it, but this has created an inflection point. And the idea is I'm going to use this inflection point to drive it harder, because that's what we were trying to do in the first place. So we've kind of almost got an accidental boost out of it, and I want to keep that going.

So that's one thing. So then the second thing is, I actually think that this current situation has somehow also become, it's almost been more democratic. We've also had the opportunity to democratize more of what we do. And what I mean by that is we've created access to more people. To give you an example, this conference, as I was speaking to my manager about it, I said, normally when you have the launch of a new marketing function, I'd say, know your top three to 400 people, you get together in a place, obviously you have this amazing meeting... Through this, in eight hours, we touch 2,000 over people.

So the access through this virtual world has somehow inspired like 10 times more people than usual. And that has gone all the way to the ground. I'm getting emails and contacts from ABM, Assistant Brand Managers in countries, Latin America, who in the past would never have thought about sending me a message or knew who I was. And I wouldn't know them. So both of those things, I think, are related to driving change, which to me comes from not just tools and all that, but also from people. And that's something I would like to continue going forward.

Babita:

Yeah. Wow. That was just an amazing conversation. Thank you so much for your time, Elaine. I've known you for a long time, but I've learnt so much more about you in this sort of last hour of, I don't know how long it's been, but it's been a really inspiring thought-provoking conversation. Thank you so much.

Elaine:

Thank you, Babita, for inviting me.

[Music transition to takeaways]

Babita Earle:

So Ryan, what did you think of that?

Ryan Barry:

It was fun to listen to that interview. You too clearly have a great relationship, but also, given that I know you both, it was just cool to be a fly on the wall. You know, Elaine is a powerhouse, as you said before. She's a driven woman, she's super smart, she knows how to get stuff done. Obviously a master of her craft. And what I really liked is her advice to younger folks in their career and, particularly, about being intentional and having a plan of where you want to go, but being mindful that it won't always happen that way. So being sort of flexible to change. And I think that's really good advice. A lot of people want the goal, but don't set it. They're not clear enough about where they want to go, or are too rigid when reality happens to say, "well, this has happened, so let me embrace that change."

And obviously as you plot Elaine's journey, I mean, a lot of her family was living in Singapore, and then she was living in Paris and then commuting back to Singapore and then to move everything to London, I mean, it was the best thing for her mental health, her career growth to move to RB. But also, that is an immense change. And I don't know if that was as she scripted.

Babita:

Yeah.

Ryan:

So I think it's commendable that she's done that her whole career, but as she's now in the C-suite, she's still doing that and still being adaptable. And I think it's really a commendable trait of Elaine's.

Babita:

Yeah. I think one of the things that she said to me was, as you know, most people fall into market research and she's one of the rare individuals that had properly mapped out her career. She makes me laugh when she says, "well, I knew what I wanted to do when I was 12." So she's, as you say, very driven. But moving recently over from Denown, moving back to RB, landing in London at the time of COVID with family being all over the place and just navigating a very high profile role and the change that they were driving within RB at the time. But one thing that really struck me was, Elaine's half Chinese and she mentions the word crisis in Chinese is made of two characters, and they can mean either danger or opportunity, and how she's sort of used that philosophy and followed that philosophy in connecting with stakeholders in a very different way around RB.

So she's really taken the opportunity of the current pandemic and not let the danger and the challenges hold her back. And yeah, just a very impressive lady and I was really happy that she was able to talk to us.

Ryan:

And that point on crisis being a massive problem or an opportunity, I mean, it's just so important. And it links to the point that I was making too, like stuff happens. I say this to my kids all the time when the milk spills on the ground, you can sit there and feel sorry about it, or you can clean it up and move forward. And I think that that is just such good advice for people. And Babita, you can see the relationship between companies that did well during COVID and those that didn't, and how they responded. Were they set up and in a position to take that as an opportunity? You and I happened to work for a company that was, or not.

Babita:

Yeah.

Ryan:

And I think it's really good advice for people to hear. So speaking of what people need to hear, we have an interesting topic. One that's sort of top of mind for us as members for Abby's leadership team, but I also think for anybody in their career, and it's about feedback.

Babita:

Yeah?

Ryan:

It's a big word, Babita, and then misunderstandings around feedback. So what are your thoughts on where people get feedback wrong?

Babita:

Oh, this is a very live topic for us, because obviously we've just been going through our 360 feedback. I think people get feedback wrong in many different ways. The first is, I think, because we're not in a very feedback-heavy culture. Generally I think Zappi is a lot better at this than a lot of organizations and that is, how to give feedback as well. And I also think without feedback, you get into a phase of, do you really understand where you need to grow, where you need to improve, but also where you're doing well? And timing of feedback, as well, is another area that we tend to get wrong. And it's something that we are working through right now. We've obviously just launched our app, the loop app, which is about giving instant feedback and in the moment when it's fresh in your mind, and I've been experimenting with that. And being able to go back to somebody immediately after they've done a presentation, I thought, "that was great!" And it was great because of XYZ, it's just so powerful.

But then also, I do feel once you've done that it helps you give feedback which is more around growth, because you've got that person's best interest at heart. And then for me personally, I think you sort of have these perceptions of, "I feel I'm doing this well, I don't feel I'm doing that well." You sort of start growing that imposter syndrome, and really helps you level set, what your colleagues think of you and where you can add value and where you can grow. So it's so important, but it's something everybody is just frightened of, either giving or getting.

Ryan:

Or, giving or receiving, I hate to use a judgemental word, but poorly.

Babita:

Yeah.

Ryan:

You know, so are we taking feedback for what it is? And with the best of intentions, feedback is somebody else's observations of you. And so you have to be able to take that, synthesize that, understand where their biases exist, in process, what's great for you. And like you, we do 360s, we have an amazing engineer at Zappi Christian who built this app that integrates into our slack instance, where you can just give people feedback that relates to one of our values. And I've enjoyed that because I'm somebody who... I used to work for a big company before Zappi, and I hated the 'bubble up feedback till the end of the year', employee appraisal kind of. I like in the moment feedback.

And one of the things that I think is useful when giving feedback, is to be specific around a situation, but also when you're getting feedback, particularly constructive feedback, making sure you understand it with your ears open. Because it's just a natural human trait for us to get on the defensive when somebody is... whether they deliver feedback poorly or not, either way, sometimes the stuff is here, and there's obviously opportunity for improvement.

But Babita, one of the things that I've been experimenting with is... and you know me, I'm somebody who's kind of never satisfied. I'm somebody who's always driving and it's a blessing and a curse, I think. But one of the things that I've been experimenting with is, when I see somebody do something excellent, instead of just giving them a high five actually unpacking that. Like, "Hey, let's stop there and just talk about why that was so great, what was so amazing about that." Because people's strengths and their super powers are things that we shouldn't take for granted. And I think it's incumbent upon people in leadership roles to put people in spots where their super powers are amplified. And so, as much as constructive feedback is amazing, I also think that people need to be mindful of what they're great at, and make sure that they're doing that all day and growing that.

Babita:

I totally agree. For me, it's more about how to give feedback, and from a leadership perspective how that's important. And we are coming to year end, it's been a very difficult year for everybody. So that connection through feedback where you've seen somebody struggle, but they've still done an excellent job, it's going to be even more important. We were talking about it in our leadership meeting today, you can really make somebody's day.

Ryan:

That's right. So, with that this is the official end of season one of Inside Insights. Babita, it was a lot of fun. Rumor has it, season two is going to happen. Have you heard that?

Babita:

Yes. I'm very excited.

Ryan:

We'd like to thank all of you for subscribing and listening to us. We're going to be back after the New Year with a whole new slew of conversations and interviews. If you, or somebody you know is somebody who Babita and I should be talking to, please hit us up either directly on LinkedIn or at insideinsights@zappistore.com.

And I just want to wish everybody a wonderful holiday season, and commend you for muscling through what has been a tumultuous year. And remind you that as we get through the other side of this, as vaccination starts to come out, to grip the good things that you learned through this really tough time, but also get something to look forward to. Babita, I'm going to go to Jamaica and sit with my wife under a Palm tree as soon as possible. And I can't wait.

Babita:

I'm going to go dancing as soon as I can.

Ryan:

I love it. Well Babita, it's been a pleasure. And I have to give a shout out to Kelsey Sullivan and Emma Vasquez, Ariel Madway, the all people behind the scenes that have actually made Inside Insights possible. And also shout out to Katie Sweet, who is on mat leave, but was one of the original creators of the idea. Katie, we miss you, we can't wait till you come back. And to everybody who's contributed, listened and given us feedback, thanks so much.

Babita:

Thank you. Yeah, it's been a great journey so far. So I look forward to season two.

Ryan:

Bye everybody.

Babita:

Bye bye.