Diane Hessan: Diving deeper into voter behavior

Babita Earle:

Welcome listeners to Inside Insights, a podcast brought to you by Zappi, which is all about bringing amazing stories from amazing people from both inside and outside of our industry. I'm here with my co host, the lovely Ryan Barry. Do you want to say hi, Ryan?

Ryan Barry:

Hi. I think this might be the first and only time I've ever been referred to as lovely, Babita. So thank you. 

Babita:

I'm having a good day, Ryan. It's Friday.

Ryan:

It's Fri-yay.

Babita:

So we have yet another amazing interview lined up for our listeners. One that is super, super relevant. And one I am so excited to hear more about. Do you want to tell our listeners who you're going to be speaking to?

Ryan:

Yes. A bit of a fanboy moment for me, Babita. I don't want to say this to Diane, so I'm just going to say it to you.

I'm interviewing Diane Hessan today. I have admired and looked up to Diane since I started my career. She is the definition of a boss lady. Harvard MBA. Entrepreneur. Built a business. Created a category. Sold it. Stayed in control. And is now following her passion and also, still helping other entrepreneurs. So we're going to talk today, but we're not going to talk about Diane's career story.

Babita:

No.

Ryan:

Diane has used what she created at C Space. I think it still should be called Communispace, that's my own bias. But has been actually maintaining a conversation with a diverse set of American voters since the beginning of the 2016 election, and I just want to hear about it.

We're a few weeks away from a big election here in the United States with quite a bit of controversy. I'm going to try my best to keep my own political views out of this conversation, but I really want to understand what Diane sees from the people of the United States.

So, really excited. Should we get into it? Let's get Diane on here.

Babita:

Yes. Let's do it.

[Music transition to interview]

Ryan Barry:

Ladies and gentleman, hello and welcome to the Inside Insights Podcast powered by Zappi. Today I have the distinct pleasure of talking to Diane Hessan. I'll let Diane introduce herself. I will just introduce her as an amazing person. Because her credentials speak for themselves. But Diane, in your words, a little bit about yourself, and then we can get started.

Diane Hessan:

Well thanks for having me Ryan. I guess for your listeners, many of whom hang out in the research space, I'm a serial entrepreneur, and the biggest company I built was a company called Communispace, which basically used the power of the internet to help major brands understand their consumers in real time. So what we used to talk about was, think focus group on steroids. Why have 10 people in a room for an hour when you can have access to hundreds of your target consumers whenever and wherever you need their advice and feedback?

That was the original idea in the year 2000. We had three years of unbelievable struggle. Multiple near death experiences. We sold the company to Omnicom in 2011. I left in 2014, and was running another company. And I have always loved being in a situation in which I can kind of take an idea and turn it into an enterprise that tries to make a dent in the universe. And it's been really a blast. I think the market research business of everything I've ever done is just my favorite, because I think listening is such an underrated marketing strategy. And as it turns out, it's a pretty underrated relationship strategy, in any dimension. So, it's great to be here.

Ryan:

That's awesome. And I have to say, I've had the pleasure of kind of socially getting to know you the last couple of years, which I never thought would happen. Because, as I was, in the year 2000, I remember just admiring the category you had built. So it's cool that you're willing to take the time with me all these years later. And for anybody who you've impacted, myself included, your advice, the counsel you give to people, on behalf of myself and everybody, thank you, because you're amazing.

Diane:

Aw. Well thank you.

Ryan:

That's why I say you're a great person, first and foremost.

Diane:

Thank you. My pleasure, yeah.

Ryan:

So Diane and I are going to have some fun today. We're going to talk about politics.

Diane:

Yeah.

Ryan:

It's going to be really fun Diane.

Diane:

Yeah. We're going to break all the rules because-

Ryan:

Yeah, we're going to break them all.

Diane:

... people always say, don't... We should talk about politics and religion.

Ryan:

Yeah. We'll do religion next time.

Diane:

I'll do religion next time. That's right.

Ryan:

So, just to ground us in when this interview happened. Today is October 7th. And tonight is the vice presidential debate. So if Diane and my interview doesn't age well, at least you can ground us on the day in which this happened. So Diane, you got into using the category and amazing creation you founded at Communispace, to understand people's perceptions of politics a while ago. Take me through how that started, and just, I think it's been about four and a half, five years now. But what got you into using your superpowers for this? And just take me on a little journey of how you got into this specific line of work.

Diane:

Sure. Basically in early 2016 I got a call from a friend of mine who was a super high up running strategy for Hillary Clinton. And we were talking about polling, and what he was learning, and the data around the campaign. And what I heard was that the campaign had a lot of data about what was going on, but less of an understanding of why. And we started brainstorming different things that they could do. Long story short, I really got sucked into this. And I left my job to go help with the Clinton campaign, understanding undecided voters in swing states, at the time.

And I spent about five months recruiting a group of voters. I used a lot of the technology and methodology I had used with brands at C Space. And I was off and running. Constant conversation with these voters. It was an extraordinary experience. And just like C Space sends weekly reports to clients about the answers to their questions of what's going on in their communities, I was sending weekly reports to the Clinton campaign.

And in research terms, I've got to tell you, undecided voters, it was a super easy recruit. There were zillions of people who, in the spring and summer of 2006, literally did not know who they were going to vote for. And the first report I sent to the campaign was called "Who Is Least Worst?" And what I learned was that people were saying to me, "I'm going to walk into a voting booth, hold my nose, and just vote for somebody." But there were a lot of negatives, as we now know, on Hillary Clinton, as well as on Donald Trump.

So it was really an interesting experience. And when the election was over, I just figured I was going to go back and take another CEO job. And I was interviewing, and I decided to put a capstone on my project. And I wrote an op-ed for the Boston Globe about what I had been doing, and what I learned, and what I thought it all meant. And right before Thanksgiving in 2006, it was published. It was called, "Understanding the Undecided Voters." And in that piece I explained my biggest insight from the project which was, that the people who ultimately settled on Donald Trump did it based on one event more than any other, and it was not coming with the emails, it was when Hillary Clinton said that you could put half of Trump's voters into a basket of deplorables. I mean, people just went crazy.

Ryan:

Interesting.

Diane:

So my op-ed went viral. I mean, suddenly I'm on CNN with Jake Tapper. And I'm being interviewed by the Wall Street Journal. And MSNBC is calling, I thought, "Oh my gosh. I'm making more of a difference after the election than before." So I decided instead of taking another CEO job that I was going to set up my professional life so that I could continue talking to these voters. So I joined some boards, I started an angel investment company, and I recruited an entirely new sample of voters. This time from all ends of the political spectrum, all states, all ages, genders, ethnicities. I did that in December and January, where I basically built the equivalent of kind of a... It was more of a panel, than a community, because I did not let the voters talk to each other.

But I basically spent a half hour live on the phone with each of these voters. And if I thought that they would be great for the panel I added them. And I got to 500 people by the end of January. And basically, I've been talking to voters almost every single week since then. And I asked them questions. It's not super oriented to surveys. I've got lots of creative things that I have to do. True false tests, Mad Libs, collages, reacting to videos, etc. But when I learn something new and interesting I write about it for the Globe. I've done about 50 pieces over the years, on everything from Trump's rallies, to why Biden might win the nomination, to how voters don't care much about foreign policy.

And it's been very enlightening for me and kept me sane. And I love applying what I did for brands to the political arena.

Ryan:

And I have to say, I've been obviously following your journey for a variety of reasons. But the thing that I always enjoy about the work you're doing, and I'm not saying this because you're with me on a podcast, is the objectivity and lens in an otherwise fairly biased ecosystem.

Diane:

Right? Right.

Ryan:

So we're not going to... Diane and I are going to do our best today to not share with you our political views. We have very similar views, we're just not going to share them here. And what Diane's done, I think, so well, is talk about these topics from the lens of the people. Which, in a polarized, algorithm-driven world, is not easy to find. It's not easy to find an objective narrative. So if you're not following Diane's posts on the Boston Globe, get over the fact that you might not be a Red Sox fan, subscribe to the globe, this stuff is good.

Diane:

Right?

Ryan:

Diane, we should take some humble pie, because our Red Sox suck this summer.

Diane:

I know, they're bad. They're bad. And I'm married to a Yankee fan. So I'm kind of, I'm giving him a mulligan, I'm rooting for the Yankees now. Which of course, if you're listening to this podcast, they're kind of in the middle of playing Tampa Bay, and we'll see what happens.

Ryan:

It’s funny to hear you say this, I'm also rooting for the Yankees. For no reason. I'm not married to a Yankee fan. But I like the old times in baseball where there was a rivalry between Boston and New York. So I guess I'm gripping on to that, so.

All right so, Diane, let's talk about Americans, and voters, and what they think. So you've been tracking this since you got involved with the Clinton campaign. And then obviously re-recruited. What are some of the consistent themes you've noticed over the five years or so that you've been doing this?

Diane:

Well I think there are a few. I guess, the first is, there is actually much more common ground than you would think in our country. So if you ask voters about policy you can get 80% of them to agree on immigration, gun control, health care, infrastructure, and lots of other critical issues. You can even get 80% of the country to agree that Trump should stop tweeting. What I mean by 80% is, if we just take something like immigration. If I came up with my own immigration policy, that would be different than someone who is on the other end of the political spectrum but, for instance, on immigration, you can get 80% of the country to be okay with sure, let's give dreamers a path to citizenship, and, let's build a physical wall in some locations on the border. Let's put a bunch of money into technologies so that we have easier ways to track people who are trying to come in illegally, etc.

And a lot of bills related to that are actually sitting on Mitch McConnell's desk. The problem is that the extremes are getting airtime. And we have a leader who is divisive, and he's supported by the media that makes money by telling stories of crazy people. So you just get more eyeballs in the media by showing white nationalists than you do normal people who are trying to live their everyday lives. But there actually, on policy, is a lot of common ground.

And that leads to the second one, because since the extremes are getting airtime, we all have perceptions of "the other side" that are super inaccurate. So for instance, if you ask most Republicans about Democrats what they'll say is, "Well, they're a bunch of elitist socialists who want to take my hard earned tax dollars and give them away to illegal immigrants, criminals, and people who are too lazy to work. And who want to take away guns, and allow women to have tons of abortions, and who want to completely get rid of the police department."

If you ask most Democrats about Trump supporters they will describe a bunch of hypocritical, uneducated deplorables, who sleep with their guns, refuse to wear masks, deny that climate change is happening, and never met a black person they liked. And both of these descriptions are wrong. But it's the stereotypes that are on the ballot right now in our country. I will tell you that I have 500 people on my panel, probably 230 of them are Trump supporters, because I've got a chunk of independents also. Out of those 230 I'd say maybe about 15 of them are pretty despicable. 

Ryan:

That fits that stereotype. Yeah.

Diane:

Yeah, that is... The rest are, they're just trying to get by. They care about their families, they're trying to make ends meet, they very often have a different life experience than I do. But they're not insane. But what happens is that, what we think about each other because of the messages that we're given by our leaders and by our media is a source of our divisiveness. It's not at the core what we believe, or kind of what we're willing to move forward with.

Another theme is, people are constantly voting against somebody else. In 2016 the number one reason people voted for Trump was that they hated Hillary Clinton, and hate meaning they thought that she was totally corrupt. I mean a lifetime of questionable activities that I won't go into right now. But this dislike of the alternative is also what's happening in 2020. There are lots of people who are voting for Biden, largely because he's not Trump. And there are actually lots of people who are voting for Trump because they don't like Biden.

And for your listeners, on that end, who wonder why that would be because he's such a nice guy, what they worry about is that he's weak. And he's so weak that his moderate policies are going to get hijacked by the radical socialists on the left, and we'll have a mess in our country. That's the narrative that they have. So they're voting for Trump because they're voting against what they have heard could be the complete destruction of our country. 

Ryan:

That's fascinating to me. So I want to... I didn't have this on my list of things I was going to ask you, but you've just said something that sort of resonated with me. So of your panel, 230 Trump voters, 15 you would call extreme. And there's extremes on both sides of this political...

Diane:

Extreme, yeah. Racist, just being pretty awful.

Ryan:

Right, pretty awful. So but you've made it-

Diane:

When they write to me what they think I'll go, "Oh. Thank you so much Ryan, it's always [inaudible 00:27:11] from you, but that's it." I mean, I don't engage much more than that.

Ryan:

Yeah, it's like, I'm not going to chat with them.

Diane:

And I'm grateful to have their perspective, because I'm trying to understand. Yeah.

Ryan:

So let's talk about... Leave those 15 to the side. Let's talk about the rest, the other 215. I've long had a hypothesis, which a lot of other people have shared, that those 215 people won't admit, impulse, who they're voting for, because of the social taboo. My father's one of those people. Quiet, normal guy. But he's got conservative values, that's what he's going to do. But if he says something it's a bit of a taboo topic. So what do you make of that? How it shows up in the polls. And I'm going to ask you the same question about Biden. But those 215 sort of normal people who lean one way, what are the issues that matter for those people? And if you have any opinions on the social taboo that the media's created for them. In the middle of both aisles, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.

Diane:

Okay. So I think for the 215 who are still, I mean, sometimes obviously I worked on the Clinton campaign, I'm a democrat, but who are still, even with all the insanity going on right now, who are still voting for Trump, a lot of them voted for him because they just wanted to blow things up. They felt that Washington was a dysfunctional mess and they were just hoping that somebody who was an outsider could come in and fix it. They perceive that Trump is doing that. And they also perceive that the government just has not served them up to this point.

So you might say, "But what about this, what about this, what about this." But for the most part, they've never really felt engaged with their political leaders. And they see Trump as someone who is really, really fighting for them. They see a strong man who tells it like it is, who works hard, who loves his family, and who's making huge progress despite unprecedented lawsuits, hearings, and general obstruction from the other party. They also see him as really successful in foreign policy, and it's funny, if you're a Democrat you just think he's been a complete disaster on COVID. What a lot of the 215 feel though, is that there is no one in the entire United States who wants the economy to come back more than Donald Trump does. That he's obsessively focused on that.

And a lot of those voters are saying, "I need the economy to come back too." They are experiencing food insecurity, they have unemployment in their lives, they really, really want it. So their perception is, even though he hasn't done a great job on COVID necessarily, that there is no one who would act with more urgency on bringing the economy back than Trump would. And they like that. And they think Biden has dementia, and that he'll be hijacked, as I said before, by the radical liberals in the party.

So that's where they are. Most people's biggest issues are related to the economy, and I think, are related to how they're going to just basically support and protect their families. Also recently, a lot of those 215 are very worried about what they have heard is the violence in our major cities. And, for those of you who are Democrats, watch FOX News as they talk about what is happening in Portland, or what is happening in Seattle, or Chicago, it scares people. And they're looking for someone that... They're looking for comfort, and they're looking for security when it comes to that. And again, they see Trump as absolutely obsessive when it comes to those issues.

Now I know you're going to ask me for the opposite, right?

Ryan:

No, I will, but I also... I like your advice for people. I think in a sensationalized media it's easy to just surround yourself with your own views. And, to your advice to the listeners, listen to Diane, because she's right. I make a point to listen to all news outlets. And the triangulation of four of them, and I even watch European news because I'm like, "What does the world think of us? What do the Democrats think of us? What do the Republicans think of us?" And I think it's really sage advice.

So there are a lot of people that aren't even Democrats, Lincoln Project, Republican Voters Against Trump, the more moderate middle base that are moving over to, I'm voting for Biden. Talk to me a little bit about the extreme left, if you want to call it that, I won't use the radical term, because I think it's a little bit rude for... I've been hearing it too much. And I think, tonight Diane, we're probably going to hear it a little too often in these debates.

Diane:

About the radical left?

Ryan:

Something tells me... Should we do an over under vote of how many times it comes up in the vice presidential debate?

Diane:

Oh why not.

Ryan:

I'm going to say 15, what do you think?

Diane:

How many times it comes up? I think 15's actually pretty good. And shame on Kamala Harris if she lets that happen.

Ryan:

For sure. But talk to me about that, I'm with you but I'm not... It doesn't sound like you've had as despicable a sense of feedback from the core. But how does that look on the left? So on the Republican side you've got 15 extreme right, bordering white supremacy, some of the others that are sorry, that are scary to me. But then you've got that base, and to your point, economy, a feeling of, this person might not be strong, so he'll be dominated by his party. What are you seeing on the other side of the aisle from your panel?

Diane:

Yeah. So in general, the Biden supporters see an experienced, empathetic man who will unite our country, who will bring sanity back to the White House, who will build a great and expert team, and who will watch out for the little guy, especially because of his background. And they think that Trump is a lying, cheating buffoon who panders to Putin and only cares about himself. At the extreme on the left are, I mean look, at the very, very extremes you have Antifa and white nationalist. But I think on the radical left are people who really are... You can think of it as free, free, free, right?

There's income equality in our country, there are a whole bunch of people who are working really hard and not able to get by. Therefore, we should have free healthcare, free education, free college, free pre-K, and so on and so forth, no matter what it costs, and no matter who has to pay for it. And I think most people feel... I don't think most people, but that's too socialist for them. They still kind of have these values around personal responsibility. These are Democrats. Around personal responsibility, around not having the American dream given to you, but rather working hard, and being committed, and taking all those long hours, and doing what you can.

I think the difference is, they also feel that people need a safety net when anything from structural racism to just plain hard times, bad luck comes to them. So it's a different view of the American dream.

Ryan:

Well I have a follow-up question for you Diane. So let's stay on health care and education for a moment. You made a point at the beginning of our conversation about how 80% of issues Americans are actually aligned on. Is this one of those?

Diane:

Well look, 80% of Americans would be okay, at this point, with Obamacare, and a public option in some way, to just make it less expensive, make Obamacare less expensive for people who are just having a really hard time affording it. I live in Massachusetts, I was on Obamacare for a while, I thought my rates were pretty reasonable. But I did speak to voters, I remember speaking to a voter in Arizona. And my kids are grown, so they don't live with me anymore, so it's just me and my husband. But he had a family that was just two of them and he was paying three times as much as I was.

So there are economic issues. But most people are good with that, right? Which is of course, why we haven't had as much progress as you would think on health care. Obamacare is way, way more valuable unresolved, for both Democrats and Republicans. Because Democratic politicians can scream, "I'm protecting your health care, and I'm protecting your preexisting conditions." And Republican politicians can scream, "Obamacare is a disaster and it's so expensive, I'm going to fix it for you." So unresolved, just like many other issues, like immigration. It's just way, way more valuable not to get it handled and move on to the next thing so that everybody can tell voters, "Don't worry, I'm building that wall." Or, "Don't worry. I'm going to make sure that we value our immigrants in this country."

So there are great campaign slogans and people nod their heads. So why resolve the issue if you're trying to run for office based on it?

Ryan:

I don't know about you, but as an American that infuriates me.

Diane:

I know.

Ryan:

It makes me so angry. We're both business people, right? A lot of issues, you take different points of view, the solution is a pragmatic orientation of multiple views. And so you could see where the business people of the world, whether it was Mike Bloomberg's attempt, or Trump's rise, or other things, you could see where that narrative picks up people of, "Maybe the anti political approach is the thing." But it is exhausting to real hear that. That's the truth, right? It's easier to just keep this as a hot potato than to actually solve the problem.

Diane:

I also... I totally agree with you Ryan. And I also think that it prevents our political leaders from getting creative. For instance, I saw an interview, if anybody can remember Michael Bennet from Colorado who was one of the 4,000 people who were running for president on the Democratic ticket. And he was being interviewed... Actually, I'm on the Boston Globe Editorial Board, we brought him in and interviewed him, just like we interviewed all the other candidates.

And we asked him about free college. And he looked at us and said, "I don't really like free college. Let me tell you what I want. I want free pre-K. Because by the time kids are 18 years old we've either got them or we've lost them so if I'm going to give something for free I want it to be education that affects children early on in their lives and increases the chances that they're going to get a good start." I was like, "Hallelujah, I love that idea. I'm never going to fight for free college again. That is great." It was so compelling.

But you don't hear really bold, creative ideas like that, you just hear the same old, same old, because it's a rallying cry for political campaigns.

Ryan:

It's true. I noticed it in... I don't even know that I would call the first presidential debate a debate. I think they were... You were eloquent in your Globe article. I think they were both old white men acting like children for the most part. It was... I was sitting there with my wife like, "Oh my god, this is wild." But you could see the pandering to the base.

So this brings me to the next thing I'm really excited to get your view on. I'm of the opinion, this election is decided by the people who don't normally vote, and the people who are kind of down the middle. And I will tip my political hat, I'm somewhat down the middle on a lot of issues. So, now I've already made up my mind, I won't share who, you can probably guess by knowing me. But talk to me about the independents, the people who don't normally vote, the lapsed voters, what are you seeing there? Because to me that's the fascinating cohort to watch here in the next couple of weeks.

Diane:

Yeah. I've written a bit about independents. There are a lot of independents who voted for Trump who are just disgusted with him now.

Ryan:

Yep. For the reasons you articulated at the beginning, right?

Diane:

For the reasons I articulated. What I hear from a lot of people, here's a common theme, for all you research types, people say a lot... "I actually didn't like him, but I just thought he was going to mature in the job. I thought that once he became president it would grow on him. That there would be an adult in the Oval Office. And guess what, it just didn't happen." I hear that all the time from people.

What's important though is, that the next thing they say is, that doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to vote for Biden. So number one, some are voting for Biden, for all the obvious reasons, but others are saying, "I don't know, I mean, I don't know if he's my guy. I don't know if I support his policies. I'm worried about that radical left, I'm worried about the violence in the cities, I'm worried that he has dementia." I mean, there's all of those themes out there that you see in the media. So some of them are saying, "I'm not going to vote at all. I just, I don't like either one of them, and I don't want to say..." And I mean, they're literally saying they're not going to vote.

Ryan:

Wow.

Diane:

Other people are saying that they're going to vote for a third party candidate. And many of them are still just undecided. They're just waiting to see how things play out. They're watching the debates, they're going to see whether the COVID numbers go down, and they're going to just try to make some decisions about who they really trust. But I do think that, ultimately, it's going to come down to character. Now in terms of who wins I think the election will all be about turnout. I tell people all the time, ignore the polls. I do think that people lie. But it's not about what the polls say. It's about, when you hear likely voters, that's getting closer. Right now, today, Biden is ahead, but there will be obstacles to voting, and life gets in the way, as will COVID, long lines, confusion about mail-in voting, lawsuits, etc.

I mean, think about it Ryan. Imagine that people are telling us we need to have a plan about how to vote. A plan about how to vote. I mean, it's insane. So where Trump has been leading, and I'm not sure that this is true this week, between taxes, and his debate performance, and the fact that he's gotten COVID but prior to this week, where Trump has been leading is that his voters were more passionate and enthusiastic about him. Like the way I've talked about it, a lot of these Trump supports they one, literally said to me look, I'll leave my infant daughter at home alone if that's what it takes for me to get to the polls. I mean, they are really, really, super enthusiastic about their candidate.

I think that this was in the Washington Post. About 68% of Trump supporters in June said they were super enthusiastic about trump. And only 31% of Biden supporters were super enthusiastic about Biden. So those enthusiastic numbers, people who decide that they're going to vote no matter what, are really, really important and Biden needs his supporters not to stay home.

Ryan:

Not to stay home.

Diane:

If he can do that either because they like him or because they decide that they like Trump even less than they thought, then he wins. But I think it's turnout based on real enthusiasm for the task.

Ryan:

I always go back to Barack Obama's first election. And from my perspective, and I'm not a political expert, I'm just a person. But the reason he won was because he got people to those polls who didn't normally go. He motivated and brought people in. And I'm of the same opinion as you, those undecided, those last voters, those people who haven't been to the polls, they don't go, we have a second term for the current president from where I sit. 

Diane:

Yeah well the other people who don't vote-

Ryan:

... what are you thinking-

Diane:

... are youth. In the presidential election, I think this is correct, about three times as many older people voted, 60 plus, as people between the ages of 18 and 29. The youth vote has been super low in our presidential primary. I know that in Alabama it was 10%, in Iowa it was 24%. 24% of young people are going to the polls, and that's it. And yet they are the largest voting block, especially when you add Gen Z. 

So in 2016 there were 62 million Millennials and 70 million Baby Boomers. So the Baby Boomers were still the biggest block. Now, if you add in Gen Z, this is the group that could transform our country. And I think, if they don't come out it's going to be a plain old enthusiasm factor among all those likely voters. But the youth vote could do it here if people would get their act together.

Ryan:

And what's your read on the Gen Z youth vote from what you see in the panel? What's the percentage of them that are in this, I'm not sure if I'm even going to go out and vote? And I know we're drawing conclusions from a base of sub 500 people. But I'm just keen to see what you see on that base. Because to me, the election rides on this.

Diane:

Yeah. I think my panel is... I actually defend my panel a lot. I think I have a great read on what's going on in the country. I don't think I have a great read on my panel on voter enthusiasm. Because think about it, I have people who are willing to, for free-

Ryan:

Talk to you.

Diane:

... every single week, talk to me. So I think these people are more engaged. Now I have asked them to go out to friends, children, cousins, neighbors, who are under 35 and be researchers for me. And what I hear is, when people don't vote they say things like, "Well, I don't like either candidate." Or one guy wrote to me and said, "I can't get my grandson to vote, he's super busy with his startup." People say, "Well, my vote's not going to matter because I live in a super blue state, or a super red state." Or, "I'm very liberal, and Joe Biden's too moderate for my agenda." I mean, all those excuses are bad. 

It's kind of depressing. I had one of my voters this morning who was a moderate Republican, highly educated, lives in California, and has 14 grandchildren. Eight are not going to vote.

Ryan:

Eight of 14 grandkids are not going to vote?

Diane:

Eight of 14. 

Ryan:

I do find it fascinating in the extremes of social media how much people put out there, and then you read from those same people, "I'm not going to bother." And it's just like, "Come on. This is the point. You go and you cast your vote."

Diane:

This is the point. This is the point.

Ryan:

Go vote people, if you're listening to this. I don't want to hear from you if you don't go vote.

Diane:

I know, I know. I mean, let's look at the opposite. The block with the most powerful voice in our country right now is black women. If Joe Biden wins he will win because black voters, and especially women, came out in droves. And think about it, he owes his candidacy to their voting power. Those people are going to get, and should get, a tremendous amount of attention if there is a Biden presidency. 

So I think the problem is, I talk to young people and they go, "Well, Biden doesn't believe in all my radical beliefs." It's not a chicken egg thing. I say to them all the time, "You want your student loan problems fixed? Do you want free education? Do you want incentives for more affordable housing? Guess what? That is not going to happen. And the reason is that no candidate's going to lose if they don't fight for those things, because you don't vote." Baby Boomers vote. There is no candidate out there, even though it might not be a bad idea, there's no candidate out there who would ever say, "I'm going to really reduce Social Security, because we can't afford it." Because the Baby Boomers are a powerful voting block. The candidate would be massacred.

Ryan:

Oh, and you noticed they were intentional about that in the debate the other night.

Diane:

Absolutely.

Ryan:

It was the one thing I felt like they were both intentional about.

Diane:

Yeah. So you want your issues to matter? Vote. Show your power. And watch candidates then start to shift to the policies that matter for the people who supported him or her. 

Ryan:

I think we should leave it here. Go vote, people. Diane, I just had a ton of fun. I can't believe this was work for me today. I'm pretty sure everybody who listens to this is going to be illuminated with what's happening. I really want to thank you for making the time today, this was just so much fun to talk to you.

Diane:

Yeah, it was.

Ryan:

Are there any parting words you want to leave with the people who will listen to this about the upcoming election? Because this will air before the election.

Diane:

I've got two things. One, I think one of the most interesting things I've found is how little voters, especially Trump supporters, care about foreign policy. And I sit here in my elitist, I'm in Boston, the center of education for the world, and of course you should care about foreign policy. We could dish on that all day long. I have so many memorable things that voters have said to me. 

And when I asked voters about why that is, one of the best comments I ever heard about foreign policy was actually from somebody on my panel who I met at a market research conference. I don't want to mention his name, but he runs a market research company, and he's amazing. And he's a very strong Trump supporter. And he said to me, "Diane. Let me give it to you in concrete terms. I have relatives from south Philadelphia who sent my cousin to Westchester State University." Which is about 30 miles away from Philadelphia. "When they took their son to Westchester they packed a bag, and they stayed with my parents in Broomall, Pennsylvania to break up the trip. Do you think they know where Ukraine is? I mean, they literally had barely ever been 30 miles away." And so there's complete, I mean there's no real interest in foreign policy because people's worlds are just smaller. Not in a pejorative sense.

I'll also say, if you do feel geeky about this like I do, I do have a website from an angel investment company. I have it salientventures.co. And you can go on there and click research and see all of my op-eds and all of that, or just write to me on Twitter, and I'm happy to answer your questions. 

Ryan:

Awesome. Diane, you're amazing. Thank you for making the time for everybody.

Diane:

It was fun, it was fun to talk about politics instead of my life story.

Ryan:

I know.

Diane:

And how we thought of online communities. And next time, religion.

Ryan:

Yeah, next time we're going to religion. And we completely stayed away from the fact that you literally created a category and built a $100,000,000 business, no big deal or anything. There's a lot of Diane interviews you can catch on this. This was so much fun.

I was saying to my wife last night, "I get to talk about politics at work tomorrow. This is so cool."

Diane:

I know. Hopefully we didn't piss too many people off. But thank you for having me, it was a lot of fun.

Ryan:

Thanks Diane. Appreciate it.

[Music transition to takeaways]

Ryan:

Wow. Babita, that was awesome. I have to say, I've never actually talked about politics at work until today. And I can't believe that we just got to do that interview with Diane. What did you think?

Babita:

I am truly humbled. What an amazing, amazing woman. And I totally get why you have this crush on her. I mean, I think I might join you in that camp.

Gosh, there's so much to take from what she said. And I myself have been following all the debates on TV, this sort of, what people have been calling a shit-show, frankly. 

But there were some things that just really stood out. I mean, we're all in insights, right? And how she's using consumer insights to really understand what's going on, right? So that shows the value of what we all do and the influence that we have, and how important it is that we bring that breadth and diversity of consumer knowledge to our clients, and to the market and society at large.

I think the other thing was, gosh, I mean, being involved in the Clinton campaign. What a privilege that must've been. I mean, we all were just in shock. I personally was in shock when Trump got in, and that was a double shock after we announced Brexit here in the UK. 

Ryan:

Oh, that's right.

Babita:

I was thinking the world was going to end. But I think the other thing that she brought out was that what we see in the media, especially over here in the UK, is what we understand about Trump's supporters and obviously the Democrats, that we just see the extreme parts of those groups. But actually there's a lot more in common in the middle ground, and they worry about the same sort of things.

So it made me think about some of the divides that we have here in the UK. One of the topics that we would never discuss is, "What did you vote for when it came to the Brexit vote?" Because for me, I suddenly get this view of that individual. So it's more about really understanding that individual.

And the youth element as well. Because you talked about a certain proportion... Like the youth really need to turn out. That's a big learning that we got within Brexit as well, because it was the young people that didn't turn up. And actually that was a real wake-up call for them. Because you say, "If you feel passionate about something, you need to show up. And you need to make your views count."

So, yeah. There was so much there that I just thought it was fantastic. Yet another great interview, Ryan. Thank you.

Ryan:

Inside Insights powered by Zappi. I really enjoyed the discussion. And all I'm going to say about your point around the youth voting is, everybody who's listening to this, go and vote. Sign in for a mail-in ballot, go vote. I don't care if you're a Republican, a Democrat, an independent, vote. Because that's the way to actually make change.

All right. I think you brought up something that we should use for this week's Understanding Misunderstandings. We have immense polarization in the media all around us.

Babita:

Yup.

Ryan:

Someone's voting for Trump, they are XYZ. Someone's voting for Biden, they are XYZ. And one of the things that I was encouraged by, as the father of young people, is we actually have more in common than we all think.

Actually we can get to common ground. And the divergence in opinion, and the debate of that opinion, can lead to great ideas.

But I think we oftentimes are living in an environment today where it's very easy to surround yourself with extreme points of views that validate what you think. That paint a picture for people who aren't exactly like you, being a lesser human than you, or being silly or racist or dumb. Or in our case, someone is a Democrat and therefore they are a socialist, and all of these other things that come into play. And I want to talk to you about that for a little bit.

What do you make of the polarization and the stereotyping? I mean, you obviously live in a climate where the big topic was Brexit. Ours has been a political landscape and a media dynamic that, even though, as Diane said, we're 80% aligned, has truly divided the population.

And this isn't just in politics. This is within the Black Lives Matter movement, other things that are happening in society today, as well as in the workplace, right?

Babita:

Oh gosh, I think we could talk about this forever. So, I can be blamed for having certain stereotypes about certain people, as people have about me, because of the way I've voted and the way I act and my image, etc.

What I've been trying to do more consciously recently, driven by the Black Lives Matter movement, by my own personal experiences. But just this sense of, there's too much friction. There are these unsaid divides. Which isn't really good for me as a human, and it's not very good for others as a human. 

Because ultimately, what Diane said, people care about the same things. They care about where they're going to get their next meal from, or whether their children are well and they're educated.

And ultimately those sort of core human needs are not going to change whether you voted in and out Europe, or whether I hope you're going to vote for Trump or Biden. And I think it's about time, given the whole pandemic and everything that's going on, that... Everybody's going through their own struggle. And we should maybe sort of pause and think about that more, rather than the extremist sets.

Because I think it's other people's convenience for us to think in those extreme sets. And ultimately it's just not good for general well-being. So I'd say that's my view on it.

Ryan:

I think you make some great points. And the truth is, we're psychologically lazy. And the algorithms on the internet are taking advantage of that.

Babita:

Yes.

Ryan:

We want to assign mental triggers for things. That's why in our industry, in market research, we look at things like distinctive brand assets. Because it's a trigger. It connects you to something.

And so this is all around us, and I think it's a responsibility for us as human beings to understand that our brain is tricking us to assign people to a certain thing, and that the internet is perpetuating that. And I think the lesson that I take away is, let's listen and understand each other. Because in the debate, in the argument, in the disagreement, is productive, common ground.

Babita:

Yeah.

Ryan:

And let's also set an example for the people who hold public office. The thing that really pissed me off that Diane said, and she's right, and that's why I didn't like to hear it. Is that some of these issues are politically better off left unresolved. And like that sucks. 

But at work, in my social life, in my community, I'm not going to play that way. I want to be able to engage in debate with people who are different from me to understand why. Not to say I'm going to agree with them or that they should agree with me.

But yeah, I think it's an important lesson for folks. So this wraps up our election special of Inside Insights.

Babita:

Amazing. Yes.

Ryan:

Americans that are listening to this, make a plan to vote. That's all.

If you think Babita and I should talk to somebody that has an amazing story of how they're navigating change, in the world, in the workplace, in education, in their career, we want to talk to them. Insideinsights@zappistore.com.

Babita, my friend. Pleasure as always. This interview won't be shipped on a Friday, but we're recording it on a Friday. May I say to you my friend, happy Friday.

Babita:

Happy Friday. Have a good one. Take care everybody.