Democratizing insights in a decentralized organization

Ryan Barry:

Hi everybody. Welcome to this episode of Inside Insights, a podcast powered by Zappi. My name is Ryan and I'm joined as always by the lovely Patricia Montesdeoca. Patricia, hi.

Patricia Montesdeoca:

Hey dude. How are you?

Ryan:

I'm good. As you know, I got a little sniffly cold and I'm in a bit of a goofy mood, but I'm just happy to be here with you today.

Patricia:

Got a man cold. It's good you've got it. You got the weekend to take care of it.

Ryan:

I know. I know. So this episode will officially hit the airwaves on December 1st. So I hope all of you had a wonderful Thanksgiving and you ate a lot of food and you get to grip your family real close. And now you have two weeks to basically diet again, I guess, before Christmas, or just keep it rolling, whatever. Just have a great, great holiday season.

This is our second to last episode, this season. Which is kind of wild, if you think about it. We've had a really, really amazing set of discussions. And I think this one's going to continue to raise the bar. We're talking to Jennifer Picard today. Jennifer is, well, she'll introduce herself properly, but she's a really, really experienced woman who has come at the problem of consumer insights from a very different background. And I think that background gives her a really unique vantage point around behavior change, which is something we're all trying to do with ourselves, with our teams, with our jobs, et cetera.

As I said, in the last episode, I've not seen a company democratize consumer insights as much as Pernod Ricard has, and Jennifer's agreed to tell us all of it. I know. So let's just get into it.

Patricia:

Amazing. Let's do this.

[Music transition to interview]

Ryan Barry:

Hi, Jen, thank you so much for making the time. I'm excited to have you on the show. This is a long time coming. Our schedules together have not lined up, but thank you for making the time today.

Jennifer Picard:

Hi Ryan. I'm very happy to be with you today.

Ryan:

So folks, we're going to have a lot of fun today. I've had the pleasure of getting to know Jen over the course of the last couple of years. She's an innovator, she makes moves. And we're going to share some of the progress that she's made today. So it's going to be really fun. Before we do, you have a fascinating background that I think makes you uniquely great at what you do now. Talk to us a little bit about what got you to the chair you're in today.

Jennifer:

Okay. So I'll try to make it fast, because I have that non-linear kind of profile background. But often you meet people that also have fascinating backgrounds? You don't know how it happened. It's not always a plan of careers. And it was a bit of my case, because actually when I was a student, I was super interested in sociology. So I knew there would be something linked to that, but I didn't take that path when I started to work. And I started as a journalist, political... And economic, and also media journalist, working for the New York times, in Paris. And as one of the different media I was working for, also for movies… 

Ryan:

Oh, I love it. You had to mix it up a bit. 

Jennifer:

So then after doing this for a few years, I was missing something actually, in all the interviews I was doing. And so really, I just stayed back and I said, "Okay, I really want to get to know more people. I have to have more genuine interactions with them and actually have an impact of... Do something with those interviews and not just inform, but just actually impact." And so I went back to school again, and did another master's degree, more linked to psychology and consulting, and studied in research at that moment. And in both research and consulting actually. So I was consulting about big organizations, how to improve them, and also studying research with different methods. But a big focus on qual, and a bit of quant, and also on, what we call at the time, editorial analysis. And actually started to have fun.

Ryan:

I love that.

Jennifer:

Maybe less succeed than interviewing movie stars, or what was doing before, or even like the president of the French Republic, or anything. But for me, it was more exciting in the end, which I didn't think it would be. Because there was this genuine feeling of getting really what was actually important to people. What were the drivers to make them behave in that way, or to use this or that. And to actually help change things in a more positive way. That's what I think was nice to me. And I actually studied my career around research at that moment. Very curious all the time. So I switched, often, the methods I investigated, and I tried to pioneer on this after that. So I started in France, then I moved to Ipsos, where I was really doing a lot of qual research, innovating in digital qual, early on in 2008 or something like that.

Like doing online communities, a lot of digital qual. And then started actually a new path of career on social listening, which was the very beginning of it. Joining at the moment a startup called Influence, and helped it to grow and to actually build the research capability there. Which was a great journey studying in the start.

Ryan:

And that was an early time for social listening, wasn't it? That was sort of when it was just becoming a thing. Now it's such a big part of the world.

Jennifer:

I remember being at Isuma, at a congress in... I think it was in Greece, where actually in 2010 or something, and I was actually explaining what would be the future of social listening. And people were challenging me like, "How come there's no actual samples? How can we say it's research? This is not research." So it was very interesting, I'll say, at the time, and groundbreaking. But I knew intuitively there would be something there for us to... I never thought of a substitute, but more of a complimentary part of research. And I'm happy that's actually become something. And then after a few years of this, I was missing a bit that complimentary of different approaches of research. So I started my own consultancy, while I was mixing qual, social listening, and different approaches. And a lot of consulting to help companies to actually integrate data, more digitalization into insights, or to have those kinds of expertise speak to each other.

And at that time, a lot of people were responsible for insights, and didn't speak that language of data. So there was a kind of conflict. And so I was trying to build that... To bridge expertise, they are pretty much the same. So I didn't see that difference. Was more a matter of language semantics, than really a kind of a different view on things. Because in the end, it's data that we can consolidate, analyze, and that we try to actually take something out of it, to impact decisions, in my decisions. So for me, it was really the same path of mind. So I didn't see why it would be competitive. So I was trying to help with this. Then I started to do this more, and a more regular way for big companies.

And I also started in a spirits company...French wine. So the MH part of LVMH. So champagnes, and a lot of French spirits, and helped them with their first social listening program, to actually make it happen. Again, it was quite at the beginning of the journey to actually start big programs, global programs of social listening, with a lot of empowerment and again, having differences around the table, speaking to each other. 

And then I was like, "Okay, there's something that I like to do. You need to influence, you need to empower. You need to actually have a lot of different people around the table, to actually make it happen, and within the organizations." And I knew something would be there. And I continue in that way, I will be quicker on the steps afterward. But that's actually how I took my position at the Pernod Ricard group, in Paris, to accompany and support their transformations of insights.

Ryan:

I love it. There's a few things that foreshadow this. So in 2010, you were talking about social listening, and 95% of the market research industry was still being convinced that online research was legitimate. Just a fun fact, because I remember going to SMR in those years, and that was the debate. Online sample. 

So there's a visionary component. There's a pragmatism component of what you said. So I was talking to somebody the other day, and they were put in a role to marry digital insights with consumer insights. And I remember sitting there listening to this person being like, "That's the same thing, but okay." But it's different vernacular, it's different technology, it's different systems. But I think your... And we'll obviously come on to the role of pragmatism through our conversation. But you're just sort of seeing it for what it is, different pieces that come together, and your curiosity leads you to this place.

Ryan:

I mean... I'm really glad you took us on this journey, because I... I interview a lot of insights leaders, and curiosity, business acumen, or pragmatism, or whatever you want to call it, and being bold and visionary, always come up when I ask people like, "What are the skills insights people need to have?" 

So thank you for validating what a lot of other of your peers have said. So tell me today, Pernod Ricard, you help a lot of people around the world take the edge off, celebrate. You helped Pernod Ricard grow their business. It's a really unique company. Talk to us about your role, and what are some of the goals you actually have in your role? Some of the needles you're personally trying to move.

Jennifer:

Okay. So thank you very much for giving me the opportunity also to explain, because it's not a very common role yet. So sometimes if I just mention the title of my job, it's really not straightforward, so I really need to voice it over. So technically speaking, right now I'm the head of a center of excellence, a very humble title. Dedicated to mixed optimization. So there's a lot that you can put behind it. Basically, Pernod Ricard called me to help them in their transformation of insight. As I mentioned, it was started two years ago. Pernod Ricard is a very decentralized group, based in about 70 markets. So it's a huge company that maybe people in the U.S. don't know for instance. But it's really an international company, but decentralized. So that means in terms of organization and transformation, there's a huge challenge there.

So in that, when they needed to actually transform insights, there was a need to re-centralize a bit of this role, and transform the role of insights. And what was at the core of the transformation, was really to transform the perception of the role of insight within all our affiliates. From being a doer, providing support data insights, to being a strategy partners, to the different key stakeholders in affiliate, whether they be marketing directors, CEOs, whomever. And this would be the case in some affiliates, but not everywhere. And we really needed that to happen. And for that, we needed first for the CIs locally to be able to focus their time on more strategic projects. And not be drowning with very recurrent simple projects. But there was not a huge, I would say, added value to what they would bring to the other people.

So that was part of it. And the other was to also have them to have the best in class methods, a lot of support also, on some specific topics that could be a transversal one, or for which we could have a transversal or global programs. Our vision was to re-centralize a bit of this into four centers of excellence. So this is the all global CI team of Pernod Ricard. So four center of excellence. One dedicated to cultural foresights. So really a perspective view on this, understanding trends of the consumers, but really with a more global cultural background. And to actually seize the opportunities for the company, from a consumer-centric point of view. Because yeah, in this transformation... I didn't mention, but Pernod Ricard wants to be a consumer-centric company. So that's a huge switch.

Ryan:

That's big.

Jennifer:

Yeah, it's big. It's a given for me, but still, it's important to highlight it.

And there's another center of excellence dedicated to the consumer understanding, and brand equity, and all that. And now they're dedicated to more of something that was a bit new for us, the shopper and traveler perspective, specifically. So it was a way to actually give an emphasis on this. And the last series, the one that I actually take care of, which is mixed optimization. If I try to make it simple, it's everything we do to actually help to have better brand assets, and activation, thanks to the feedback of our consumers, basically, to make it simple. So, we take care of communication assets, packaging assets, communication campaigns, and all NTG ideas and concepts. Everything, we try to work around testing this with the consumers. And for that, within our organization, there was no standardized way of doing so. There were no common KPIs, no common language.

That was my mission, first, to actually make this happen. So have that common language. And when you have so many different markets, visions, and different also, we have a portfolio of brands that is very large. So we have very luxury products, and more products that are more common kinds of spirits. So different strategies and different cultures too, different ways of doing research also. So you have to actually have a program from all those people. So that was the first thing they asked me to do when they asked me to come.

But then they said, "Okay, not only you will standardize, and build a common language, but we would like you to actually find a way to automate everything you can in a simpler way, so that CIs don't have to take care of it. But also, we will put it in the end of the marketers, so that we can actually better democratize insights. It will be actually in their hands to be able to make sense of this data. Another set of data, as they use other kinds of data very easily. They should be able to do it." So that was nothing. "And everything that is more strategic and complex, your team, the center of excellence, is actually taking care of it. And both to actually help with more complex hedge methods..." And that can be then automated, by the way, if we manage to find a way to do so. "But also, to align different perspectives from different affiliates, and to help them find a common ground, based on consumer feedback, consumer insights." So that's the mandate I took.

Ryan:

The thing that strikes me is you started with people. So many businesses, this is what happens, "We want to become customer centric." Check. Table stakes. If you work for a company that doesn't think that, just sharpen your resume up, there's a lot of companies that do, go work somewhere else. But you started with the outcome for the insights people. So how can local insights people move from doing, to thinking and helping drive growth? You said strategic partners. And then you went to tools, and then you went to tech. I don't know if you did that on purpose, but, people, that's the order of operations here.

And I think part of this is you're naturally good at understanding change. But there's just an insight within that order of operations, it struck me while you were speaking. So I want to unpack something centered around the local teams. And then we'll go down in order, because there's a lot of... There's just so much to talk about here. Like a lot of companies, you're decentralized. But the alcohol space is 5x more decentralized than soda, snacks, consumer packaged goods, restaurants... Restaurants to a degree. But you have local ownerships, affiliates. Talk to us a little bit about the dynamics of how decentralized you actually are. And then talk to me about how you were able to canvas the needs of the different businesses, in CI and in marketing, as you were sort of starting out on your journey. Because it's quite vast, the amount of discovery work you actually had to do.

Jennifer:

All of our affiliates are quite jealous of their autonomy, which is fair. And they were all hired for that. So, of course, there would be a centralized organ, but a cold center of excellence. Well, they were the experts doing so. Some of them were a bit questioning what would happen. The idea was we need to give them the opportunity to actually grow and be strategic partners with... Like honestly, to have more time to focus on more strategic projects, than testing assets. So for instance, doing Q&As, or doing really deep dives on where there's a real need to have an expert on the long term project. So when they said that there would be a center of excellence on that, they felt that they were a bit frustrated that their expertise in excellence would be stolen by us a bit. There was a bit of this, not all of them, but some of them.

So we need to reassure them of that. I didn't come here with the vision that I was the expert on that specific topic. What I wanted to do, is to help to change, with the best people in class. And I was hired for that. I have a bit of a background on quant, but it's tiny compared to qual, and to social listening. And I really explained that to my managers when they wanted to hire me. I said, "Hey guys, I'm good at change management, but don't expect me to be the quant person who's going to explain everything about... I don't know, I understand it, but it's not my proficiency." "You're fine, this is exactly what we want. We want someone to actually make it happen. We don't want another expert, otherwise we would hire a consultant that is dedicated to that."

So that's what I try to explain to my peers, and we built what we call pilot teams within the CI community, and the marketing community. To actually see what works from their point of view. So we did a lot of interviews first, and then we gathered the output of this, to understand what was for them, the best in class ways of measuring KPIs, what they would like to actually be able to... If we focus, for instance, on one area, asset communication, asset testing, what they would like to do. What they were expecting from a CI point of view. And then also from a marketing point of view, what they were able to feel comfortable with, and understand. 

So we built a framework with KPIs that would sound fair to everyone. So some may have told us that it was too much of a minimum value proposition, but this is exactly what we wanted to do. We wanted to build a solid common language, on which the most advanced could actually build on. And the least advanced... Because we have a huge heterogeneity of seniority, of market sensitivity, and so on. So we need to actually equip everyone. It's not like we are only equipping, for instance, the U.S., Or China. So we need to actually find a common ground for all of our affiliates, and develop different levels of seniority. So some of them may have been frustrated, but it was really on purpose, to actually make sure that we could embark everyone with that journey.

And then once we had defined those KPIs, and this framework of thought, of measurement, its philosophy around measurement, we shortlisted different platforms that could help us to actually test our assets. So Zappi was part of the shortlisted end one, by the way. This request for proposal, for testing I would say. Because it was more than a proposal, we asked you and you really... You and other companies, we had three companies shortlisted to go really do the extra mile on that RFP, because we asked you to actually test in real time and compare results into your platforms. So that we would see how it's... On the real test, what could be the outcome? It was a risk for us too, because honestly launching the same research on three different platforms, maybe getting different results. However, we would've needed to actually account for that.

We took the risk. Actually, we got really good results that were really comparable from one platform to another, which actually also proves that research is quite robust... Another topic. But the idea was also through that, to make sure that we could really decide on real results, and have also the point of view of marketers to see from their user experience. It was okay for them to understand what they would actually get.

And that's how we came up with using your platform, which seems, from the CI point of view, to meet the requirement that we had. But also from the marketing point of view, it was quite friendly to them to actually get the results. But then we built on together to customize all your platform, and make it our own Pernod Ricard, Zappi, which is what we call the AskNow. It's a suite of automated tools that we have built for Pernod Ricard. Zappi is even our key partner, that we have other partners also on other use cases. But a very strong partnership with you, and you have been very much willing to actually accept that need for customization that we had, so that we could push that program within Pernod Ricard. Because what we chose to do was to focus on some simple, specific use cases to start with.

So to put it in other words, not to give access to the full suite of automated tools, do it yourself, that you can propose. To make it very simple for the non-specialist, non-experts use it. So that if they log to the platform, if they actually use what we call ASNA, for creative pre -test. They know exactly what they have to do, they have a scorecard with the different KPIs that... Inaction standard they need to follow to make their decisions. So it's really from A to Z, they don't have too many decisions to make by themselves, from a research standpoint, so that they can actually make it happen.

Ryan:

Wow, there's so much to unpack here. I think there's something unique too about just where you started. Not being an expert or overly opinionated about, "This is the way we must test copy." What an advantage for you. Because there's some religious element of, "Well, this is the way I believe." Or, "My philosophy." Or... So, I imagine on some level that allows you to really listen to the teams, without a bias to say, "All right, what are the 10 measures that actually matter for our business?" And then to go all the way down to, "What's that problem? How do I bring the team along? Then, let me think about buying technology." I can't tell you how many people start in the other way, where they say, "McKinsey just left. We need to become agile. Can you sell us your software?"

And it's like, "What are y'all trying to do? What are you actually trying to solve?" So we started on this journey, and I remember hearing about this from Gareth Bern, who's a lovely man, who you know well. And I was so excited about the vision that I heard, because... In our eight years of building Zappi, we've done some cool shit. I have to be honest with you. Your use case was extremely inspiring to me, because the reason I left Kantar to come here was because I thought insights people should be doing more strategic work. And that testing and learning should just be baked into the development processes. But I can't tell you how long it's taken for that actually to be the case, Jen. Oftentimes, it's like, "Hey, you're doing it faster, it's cheaper, and it's good. Can you do it? Because, we're in a rush." Whereas this is actually part of, I think, a vision that I share. So fast forward to today, AskNow is live in, what? 60 countries, or something crazy like that?

Jennifer:

I couldn't even tell you how much we covered now, but most of our countries. Yeah.

Ryan:

And so, with marketers, are they finding that it's easy to use software and insights tools? You're actually living in the agile development journey. Let's build the basics, then let's make it Pernod Ricard's, then let's make it better, and more shiny, and more robust. So a year and a half-ish in, we're living everywhere. It's currency. Local CMOs, global CMOs, are behind this thing. What are you seeing? Like are insights people being more strategic? Are marketers making better ads? Talk to us a little bit about what you see on the ground.

Jennifer:

Just to comment on what you said just before, also that decision thing that you just mentioned, I think it all happened also because my boss, and the boss of my boss made that decision. I've had support from top management, from COMEX too, to say, "Okay, that's the way to go." And I had support from CEOs from brand companies and so on. So that helps you when you're not just alone in your journey. And also, that vision was deeply rooted in the strategy. Well of course, we accounted for that, we accelerated a lot to make it happen, and so on. We had a lot of pressure in terms of deadlines.

But thanks to that, we made it happen. So for me, exactly as you mentioned, I tried to phase that project with a minimum value proposition, try to make it happen. To build awareness around that project, to train as many people as we could. So we have trained about 300, what we call power users, within the organization. Honestly we have run more than about 150 projects. I mean 150 projects have been run, because we accompany them with support when needed, but we are not the owners of those projects. It's already quite something big, I think. But I mean of course, it's not the end of the journey. And the other thing, maybe in terms of context that is very important to understand, is that the transformation I mentioned of Pernod Ricard, started with insights transformation. But then, we are in a big plan that we call transform and accelerate. And all the marketing and sales teams have actually transformed too.

So there was this big transformation happening, while we were rolling out the tool. So we have trained people who are no longer, I would say, the people who should be launching the pieces of research. So we need to now fine tune who in that new ecosystem, that transformation, that has been finished, this summer. Who are the real people we need to train, and to make it a bit more stick to actually what's needed, and how we can be very efficient. Everyone knows AskNow, within the companies. I'm very happy in terms of awareness that we have managed to do so. I see a lot of people coming to me, "Is there a way to do an AskNow on this?" So a lot of curiosity, and a lot of people understand the efficiency of this, and what we can do with it.

So this I think is a great win. CIs also, they are very happy not to do it. Some of them still have the pressure from their marketing directors to actually do it, because they don't... Either they haven't done the change themselves within their own affiliates. So that's a problem for some of them. So we need to help them there, to really finish that transformation. That will come with the last piece of the plan that we had put in place, which is really having a stronger community management of our power users. So that we can actually feed them, pack more use cases on top of what we have already suggested. Because we started with one use case, we already have between three and five of them now, and we are going to have more use cases this year.

So that's a big program of training, of community management for us too. And I'm recruiting the right people in my team. And your team also is super dedicated to data, and to help on this too. So that's the next step for us. And it's more like confirming what we have to do. Another great sign of the success of this approach, is that we have a big marketing effectiveness program that we are putting in place. And every week I've got some questions on how to use ASNA in that program. And we are working on it actively to see how to make it happen. But for me, it's also designed that there's trust in this program, and that people want to leverage it internally. And that's shared also by really key internal stakeholders. So I'm very excited about this.

Ryan:

This is really quick though, right? So I think one of the things that's important to unpack here, is the company says we're going to become customer centric. The business commits to change, the leadership holds the space. So leader's on the phone, your job is to hold the space for innovators like Jen, to do her thing. You made the discovery before you bought toys. You did a lot of experimentation, but we're only 12 months later. And that's the level of ubiquity and awareness the program has. 

So I want to unpack a few more things with you. But I also want to thank you, because you've helped me realize that the fastest way to drive insights transformation, is to make the software speak the language of the company, not the language of the vendor. It's your system. It's not Zappi's system, or whatever other vendor.

And I think the ability to standardize and personalize at scale is the penny drop that I've had in the last year through this program. The other thing that you say that I want to talk about a little bit, is that this wasn't just an insights transformation. Because this stuff happens in a bubble a lot, right? Like, "Let's change insights." And it's like, okay, but if the brand manager still acts the exact same way, I can't change, because I'm still doing. So I think, if there's anything... Any context you have on how the insights and marketing transformation work together, I think it'd be really beneficial for people. Because I'm speaking on behalf of a lot of insights people, who often feel lonely, because they're trying to change in a vacuum. But perhaps their agency partners, their marketeers, their business, isn't changing with them. So how did that kind of orchestrate itself together?

Jennifer:

So honestly, this is also why I joined Pernod Ricard. Because when I met the people who wanted to hire me, I saw vision. My boss, she's the global insights director for the group. And she has initiated the insights transformation, and her boss is leading what we call global business development, that is a huge part of the HQ of Pernod Ricard. And he looks over really everything that is on marketing, selling a lot of different components. And he has decided that. And he has actually hired me to make it happen.

=And his boss, who's at the COMEX, also knows perfectly about that program. And they put pressure on me, honestly. But I accepted the challenge, because they hired me for change management. That would be beyond insights. Because we wanted to become a consumer centric company. So that was the beginning of the story. And then my boss asked me to be super present in all the marketing big instances, to connect with the marketing directors, to explain the projects, to account for the project. 

Some of them were pushing back, some of them were really enthusiastic, but they asked me a lot of questions about the robustness, about the way we would measure with... We call them toys, I think there was this kind of a thinking, okay, they're maybe not robust at all. But usually describe platforms, quick, just to name it. And it was not the object of that. Okay, will it be HR, but it wouldn't be dirty, would be as robust as another method. That's why I committed to it. And we needed to, for that, to have benchmarks, to build anything we could, to help them to actually build norms so that they could be reassured.

So a lot of the beginning of the story was about reassuring on really strong insights, methods. And that was a lot around that. And also with the CI. And I had a team of experts really explaining. You guys did so too. And we did a lot of internal webinars to explain, account for things, before we actually started to roll out. So we started to build, co-build with a lot of people. Then we self-launched to see how we could actually apply it to different cultures, different contexts. And then we started to communicate to marketing directors, to brand directors, to CIs, to make sure that they would know about it, and that they could actually help us to promote it internally.

Then we defined with them who would be the power users. And then we actually rolled that completely, the program, with all the training, and with you to make it happen with the... And build the norms locally, when there were... Sometimes in some markets, we didn't have the norms yet. So we needed to build it too. So it was a kind of that program, and had a deadline to make it happen. So this is why I committed too with my team. And my team was super efficient to make it happen, I have to say,

Ryan:

Yeah, it's almost surgical. But there is something just like, "I'm leading this meeting inspired by it too." You have to have ambitious goals and drive pace, while also being patient. Are there tense days when you're being pushed that fast, for everybody? Sure. But if you want to achieve great things, you have to balance everybody feeling real happy, like, "Guys, we got to go, we got to do a lot." Because in your world, if you roll out AskNow, and it's not credible quality, robust insights, who cares that it tests overnight? Doesn't matter. It's irrelevant.

I want to ask you, we have time for two more quick questions. I want to ask you one more question. In the markets... And you could pick one in your head, you don't have to call anybody out. In the markets, where marketing is testing ads as they create them, and insights is not having to do that. What are they doing with their time today? And what sort of impact are you seeing on the ground? Maybe as a motivational cry, for everybody who's like, "I don't know if I want to let my Legos go. I like managing ad testing." Or whatever it might be.

Jennifer:

Yeah, so it's quite different from one organization to another. Because again, there is this autonomy, and the structures are very different from one team to another. I have in mind some teams where they said, "Okay, you guys are doing this now. We don't take care of it. And now, you are the ones taking care of it completely." So either they're a power user for AskNow, or I said that there were other programs where we take over. And they said, "Okay, now we don't take care of it anymore." And for instance, I have someone in mind who's actually both now head of consumer insights for the brand company, but also for marketing effectiveness. So a much broader scope, that includes all kinds of sources of data.

I mean, within the organization, that means a lot of the different streams of work, and potential new experiences for her, and opportunities, I think, potentially within the world. And she doesn't... She can help to think of some method with us, or some specific components, political components that we need from her. But she doesn't tak re care of those quantitative pieces of research that are recurrent, and she can actually that time to be more creative for other methods in social listening too. But mostly marketing effectiveness. I don't think she would've been able to dedicate that time to that new area, if she would still be in charge of that. 

Ryan:

Well, that's true. I think of some insights managers, god love them, they'll get a copy test report out of a system like ours. And they're in such a rush, where they just put top line headlines on it. And it's like, it can't be motivating work for them to do. They're not thinking. So I think what you're saying is in this specific example, this person is able to think strategically...

Jennifer:

And to be creative.

Ryan:

Be creative.

Jennifer:

Peace of mind to actually say, "Okay, maybe there's this opportunity for us there. Maybe this is what I can do." Instead of being stuck, because I see even my team, they get that flow. There's a lot coming in, and it's difficult to plan too. So we help them with this. Some of them really see the opportunity, and some other affiliates were not there yet. So let's be honest. And it's a complex thing to achieve. There can also be some psychological pushback, career pushback, different kinds of situations. So we try to go step by step. And for sure, there's still room for improvement. But it's a given that we need to go in that direction. And so, I think the next step is just now, that all the transformation is pretty much finished for marketing people.

The ideas for us also to explain, and get back to the marketing directors, all the key stakeholders, to explain what's the role of CIs in this. So that we can really continue that journey. But I think we're on the right path. We need resources. So maybe this is also something just to... I would like to emphasize that we really need people to manage those programs internally. That doesn't mean to run the research, but to manage the program, and to be ambitious by the fact that it is a huge program that also needs some capacity to speak with other teams internally. I have great support from the IT teams here also, to help us to speak with you on more technical stuff, that we may not master as much as you do, for the customized part of it.

I have a team also helping a lot, for the empowerment along with your team. We split that burden, so to speak. But it should be an ambitious program to make it happen. So it's not just pushing a button, and buying a platform and the customer service, which is already great. It's fantastic for CIs. But if you want to put it in the hands of marketeers, then it's the more ambitious program, and you need people to make it happen internally.

Ryan:

Yeah, you do. You absolutely do. The systems need to be simple. The insights need to be curated, not on a Tuesday, but on a macro level. Insights people, this is good news for you, that this is where the world's going. Don't be worried about this. Because the more of your tactical Legos you give up, the faster marketing is going to move, and the more strategic and creative you get to be. Jen, I can't thank you enough for sharing all this with us today. I always lead meetings with you extremely motivated, today just happened to be a podcast recording. So I can't thank you enough for your time. And we'll have to have you back on in a couple seasons just to track the progress of where everything's got to.

Jennifer:

We'd be very happy to do so. Thank you so much.

Ryan:

Hey Patricia, what'd you think?

Patricia:

I thought it was amazing. I mean, one thing is actually, cause I work with this team, right? And I'm their customer transformation lead. I was until recently and one thing is watching it while you're in the weeds. And the other one is listening to her, tell the story from her vantage point and you realize, oh my goodness, how impressive. So I've done a little cheating. Those of you who have listened to us know that this is the time, when I say we've got six nuggets or eight nuggets or a baker's dozen or whatever nuggets of truth or mega quotes. And this one, I have two lists. I'm sorry, but there are two. The first one is three things. So the question is how does a very large decentralized and siloed company transform into a centralized, smooth running consumer centric, machine? Three things.

Number one, a line at the top, the company needs to be consumer centric. Number two, find a person who's passionate about innovating and making that change happen. A visionary right parentheses, it's Jennifer Picard, right? Number three, support and empower this person and set them up for success.

I started with that, why? You just talked, or when we did the beginning, and then you just heard Jennifer speak to how the work came about. And it seems really complex because internally the steps are very complex. But if we step back and start seeing the forest, instead of the trees, we realize that there are three simple things that need to happen. You have to decide to make it happen. And that's something, if you start in the right place and you set up those expectations, then you go and find a person that makes it all come true and help that person make it all come true. That is an absolute recipe for success. It's hard to fail when you have those three. So that's me. That's my soapbox, because I think we have to make things simpler before we make them complicated. So I'll let you know. Now. I'm going to give you the how to's for Monday morning. How just for Monday morning is…

Ryan:

Let me just tell you though, I feel the same way you did at the beginning, this one of the first like real deep customer stories we've had.

Patricia:

Yep.

Ryan:

For those of you who've ever been in leadership at a company, you know that this time of year kind of sucks. You're budgeting. It's stressful, movement, adjustments. I needed this conversation. It was exactly why I joined this company and I've been extremely motivated as a result of it. So thank you, Jen.

Patricia:

Now, for those of you listening to find things to do on Monday morning, here we go. I've only got eight things for you guys to do from Jennifer Picard. Who, by the way, don't forget, she was a journalist into movies and politics. She worked in quant called digital social, and then she became an expert at joining them all. So I am sure most of you find some of yourself in Jennifer Picard because she's a combination of many things wonderful.

So here we go. How did she get this done? Number one, she accepted the challenge. That sounds pithy. I know, but it's not. Because at the end of the day, she has to transform. She's been given the task to transform Pernod Ricard from what they were to a consumer centric organization, a big task. And she has to understand that she has to tackle different markets, visions, cultures, portfolios of brands, ways of doing research, high luxury products, common products, simpler products, cheap products, right?

They have to transform insights and re-centralize a common language. She has to accept all of that together. Number two, she has to understand internally and communicate to the team that consumer insights as a team must become strategic partners to their stakeholders. Not order takers. She didn't say the word order takers. That's my take on it. But you know what I mean?

Ryan:

Yep, absolutely.

Patricia:

Yep. She has to really, they have to really transform the perception of the role of insights within all of their affiliates. Now, we all know that the wife of, what is it? The wife of Caesar not only has to be good, she has to look good, or act good? Or people who perceive her are good. There's a saying and there's somewhere. And hopefully you all understand it, but they have to change the perception of their whole company.

So they have to make sure that the local consumer insights CI's, is what she calls them. Have time to focus on more strategic projects and start doing the added value work, you know, with best of class methods and everything. And she decides what needs to be done as democratization of data and insights to the marketers.

Number three, she conducts a needs audit. But she doesn't say, you know, what are your methodologies? Or what are the processes or what are your KPIs or what do you want? No, she says, what are y'all trying to do? And what are y'all trying to solve? I love that.

Ryan:

Could you imagine a French person actually saying, "Y'all"?

Patricia:

I can't even, but she said it, I wrote down word for word. And I went to the transcript to make sure that I wasn't hearing "y'all", she actually said that. I loved it.

Ryan:

Not to derail you, but I've adopted "y'all" into my vernacular. And it's a much more non-gendered way of addressing people by the way.

Patricia:

Yes. I like that very much. Who knew, who knew that these people, ahead of their times. Number four, she determined what types of tools were needed, but she wasn't talking about the concept tests and this test and that. She said the types of tools, right? Simple, effective, efficient, harmonized, automated, connected. So that the person with the least experience is able to manage it. The test in real time and able to compare all the results on the platform. Nowhere do you hear her say, "I want a sequential monadic". No. She talked about the types, what the tools needed to have for them to work for her and her team.

Number five, notice that this is not number one, number five, she looked for the tech to join at all. She didn't start with the tech. She didn't start with a tool. She didn't start with a shiny object. She started with the needs and understanding the first level needs and the fifth level needs. And then she looked for a tech that could do that. The tech had to be software that could speak the language of her company. Had to be appropriate in the range of methodologies. Had to be global so that it could apply to different cultures and contexts. Had to have robust KPIs and benchmarks and norms. And she saved this one for last, not a vendor, a business partner.

She didn't want somebody to just, you know, drop it and leave. She wanted somebody to be in it for the long haul with her. And then number six, go, go, go. She built and launched Ask Now. It's a suite of automated tools built for them by different partners, not just one partner, many different partners, because you can't do everything, right? Very simple for the non-specialists scorecard, with everything they need to make decisions. Then they defined who should use it and trained over 300 power users. Then they had additional webinars and workshops. We participated, you and I, in many of these, they were amazing. And she also had small hand holding sessions.

I participated in some of those as well, and they created relevant norms. They had somebody build it and then they made it theirs. Now, the last two are my favorite. What was the result? The result was a total insights transformation of the company. They transformed and accelerated. The marketing and sales transformation was also complete. They are now aware and totally curious about what they can and can't do themselves. Now. They have, as you heard her say, meetings begin with what Ask Now inspired them, that week or that day. Right? Now they have the consumer insights, their CI more strategic and creative. They have time to think and time to add value. And they have a much more centric marketing and sales teams in their day to day work, not just the company, but the day to day. Right?

And what's next? This is so exciting. I can't wait to have her back to tell us what's going on, but she is next set her eyes, her vision on a big marketing effectiveness program, a large social program and a stronger community management of their power user. So that not somebody to run the research again, no, to be ambitious and to manage the program and to make the internal teams talk to each other so they can start curating and then creating insights on a macro level. I got to tell you the geek in me just loves that. 

Ryan:

Well, you were part of doing it, so kudos to you.

Patricia:

It was great. It was so good. It was so good. The team is amazing. She's amazing. The work was, it was, I learned so much with her.

Ryan:

And I'm of the view. This is going to be mainstream in five years, insights people will be strategically connecting dots, really thinking through foresight, why people do what they do. Marketers will have tools that are data sets that allow them to make things better, to inspire their creativity, to give them confidence, but without having to wait for things and people and integrate that data right into all their post-launch data. I mean, there's a lot of this stuff coming in my view. So a little glimpse into the future of my friends. Wow. We only have one episode left.

Patricia:

Yes!

Ryan:

The next episode is a special episode. We're going to flip the script. So Patricia is running the interview and I have the unenviable? In-enviable? Whatever. I have the hard job of being you and distilling down your discussion. So who are we going to talk to?

Patricia:

This amazing, amazing man named William "Bill" Lunderman, the word that he uses to describe himself, and I wholeheartedly agree with it, is provocateur. Yeah, even just saying that word, provocateur, evokes Bill for me.

I met him. I had the pleasure of working with him and traveling with him, when I worked for Colgate-Palmolive. He was the vice president of global strategic brand design. The way that you say it colloquially, not a title, is he was responsible for all the design and the packaging of the company. Right? But more than that, he is just one of those disruptive, bold, risky people. 

He has no box. There are no boxes that fit Bill. Right? And he's coming to talk to us about design thinking, which is his absolute passion in life. Design thinking, and he leads his life that way. And not only has he had an amazing career and he's an absolute pleasure to work with, to learn from, but he's just a really cool dude. And I wish I could be just a little bit as cool as he is.

Ryan:

Well, I'm excited to meet him through this interview. That's going to be really fun. And it was a good way to wrap up our incredible season. So folks have a great week and stay tuned for our next episode and tell your friends. Patricia, Kelsey, Judith, appreciate y'all have a good day. All of our listeners appreciate you too. 

Patricia:

And if you have any questions or anything you'd like to talk to us about, or you want to, you know, something to be talked about in the next season, or you want to be the one being interviewed, please tell us you. You know where to find us. We're all here. Zappi's here, Kelsey's here, I'm here. Look for us. We're ready. Bye guys.

Ryan:

Bye everybody.