Advertising as art: How ad testing enhances creativity

Ryan Barry:

Hi everybody, Ryan here. Welcome to this episode of Inside Insights, a podcast powered by Zappi. Also now available on YouTube, so I could show all the YouTube peeps. Check out my Inside Insights merch that I got in the mail. If you want to be a guest, it comes with getting some cool merch from Kelsey and Ariel. Did your merch make it to Columbia, Patricia?

Patricia Montesdeoca:

Not yet. But I think it'll be okay, because I want the mug. The beanie in this weather might be a little tough. Right-

Ryan:

True.

Patricia:

Although it might help with the humidity and the frizz.

Ryan:

That's true. Yeah. I do see people, I was in Miami recently and there was people wearing beanies for like-

Patricia:

Yep.

Ryan:

A look, I think.

Patricia:

It's a look. It's a look. It's a definite look. And I love the beanie look. I love the beanie look. My kids say I'm ridiculous and I don't care.

Ryan:

I think you're cool. I think you're cool.

Patricia:

I think I'm cool. Look at this. If this isn't cool, what the fuck is?

Ryan:

Yeah, I agree.

Patricia:

So, this is my new manicure. My kids are like, "Mom, who are you?" I'm like "my own self."

Ryan:

I'm a badass, kids. That's who I am. Thanks very much. Kelsey, what's up? How you doing?

Kelsey Sullivan:

Doing good. Excited for the long weekend here for us.

Ryan:

Oh, long weekend.

Patricia:

Yeah.

Ryan:

I really suck at taking those Monday long weekends off because we're global, but I will try. I think I might have a full day by accident. But I'm happy for you.

Patricia:

Good.

Ryan:

hope that you have a great weekend. And I'm excited for today's episode. Today's episode is with Jo Rigby. Jo Rigby actually joined Zappi a few months ago. And before working at Zappi, she's had a really crazy and cool and amazing career, but has been leading business development and big pitches at some of the biggest ad agencies in the world for a really long time. And she's on a mission to join Zappi to change the way consumer data works with creators, to help really learn and make the best creative get into market. But also make sure it moves needles for the businesses that it supports.

So, Jo is the first segment this season of a Zappi colleague who's going to be joining. We're going to be bringing experts from our business a couple times in this season to share some of the context and expertise that we have. We obviously have the benefit of working with hundreds of brands across the world, helping them transform the way they get insights. And so we want to bring some of that learning, as well. But Jo's going to share a really great story with us today. So let's get into it.

Ryan:

Hey, I'm really excited. I get to talk to my colleague and my new friend, Jo Rigby. Jo joined Zappi... Jo, when did you join?

Jo Rigby:

4th of November, last year. Yeah.

Ryan:

4th of November. And she'll tell her story. Jo joined us from a really cool career in strategy planning and in the creative sector, and Jo, I don't know that you know this about me, but I'm a big fan of yours.

And I think I've described you as super fly behind your back, and Jo is going to talk to us a lot about the advertising, media, and communications world today, the world she's coming into Zappi from. Jo, I'm really excited to share our conversation with the world.

Jo:

Oh, thanks Ryan. Well, I'm a big fan of yours, so you're going to hear a lot about-

Ryan:

We're in each other's fan clubs.

Jo:

You're going to hear a lot about how my world has changed since I've joined Zappi. You're going to hear a lot about this.

Ryan:

Oh, good. I'm glad. I'm glad to hear it. So let's just dive in. So you've been on a really interesting journey that led you here, right? So a long career in strategy planning, working for the biggest, most successful advertising and media companies in the world, and you've also been a politician. So I'd love for you to reflect on the journey you've had, some of the learnings you've had along the way, and I guess what led you to decide to go work for a software business in the consumer insights space?

Jo:

Yep. Well, before we even start with the media career, there was another career just before that, which happened so long ago that I don't really talk about it, but actually, I feel like it was really important. I was actually a librarian. I worked at City of Salford Libraries for many years, and I used to help all the children and the old people pick their books and discover new books, and I was on the mobile library. And I moved to London, I kind of forgot about that, but actually, it's really been a foundation for everything I've done, because it was about connecting with people, and bringing them something that made them happy, and I am a big believer in libraries and the public space, and I will always campaign to keep our libraries open, because I believe in community.

And I think you would laugh if you'd have seen the system we had to work with at the library. This was before automation. So I'm now in a tech company. 

But it was a great start, and then I moved London, and I joined Proximity, which was a direct marketing agency, one of the biggest in the world, part of the Omnicon Group. And again, I've still got a real passion for direct marketing. I think it's — done well — it's the most credible connection that you can make, whether that's digital, or still something that comes through your door that has a personalized envelope, that opening up : What's somebody got to say to me?

Ryan:

Yeah, it makes you feel special. And to your point about community, brands are trying to connect that way, and that is a great way to do it. I'm, as you know, a big Peloton fan, and I got a personalized gift the other day from them.

Jo:

Oh.

Ryan:

I felt very special about that.

Jo:

Yeah. Yeah. So direct marketing, and I remember one of the first things I did there. I set up a direct mail library. I must have still had the librarian head in me, and we had eight floors in the offices, and I put a big bin on each floor, and people had to bring all of their direct mail in, and I would catalog it, and then if we wanted to inspire the creative team, or show them what the competition were doing, I would just go, "Well, here's all the direct mail for insurance," which actually saved the company quite a bit of cash from not having to buy it in, and we actually had it on paper. So that was one of my first initiatives in London.

Ryan:

Oh, I love that. It is true though. Librarians, and that sort of desire to organize and connect, it's such a profound problem in business today. I mean, most companies have more information than they know. It sits in people's heads. It sits in PowerPoint decks. I mean, we've talked on this podcast many times about knowledge management, and there's so many similarities in the data space to it. I didn't know that about you, by the way. I have to tell you though, all the technology aside, in my little town in Massachusetts, the library still uses index cards from 35 years ago.

Jo:

Oh, fantastic.

Ryan:

And my son is an avid reader, and he still will go and check out the book, and it has the due date, and the stamp, and the whole thing.

Jo:

Yep. Oh, that's lovely. So after Proximity, I moved to be a media researcher for OMD, and I was there for a number of years. It became Omnicom Media Group. And what I was responsible for doing was to help identify the target audience using the industry tools, and bring them to life for the clients and for the planners, and inspire them to build their plan around them.

And I think, again, I love that investigation and that discovery. So using data to pinpoint who might be interested in this either brand or this behavior change message. What am I basing that evidence on? Oh, it's something that they've bought in the past, or the way that they're responding to this attitudinal question. So it's always been around using data to make the case that the investment that you are going to take from the client and put out there, it has credibility, and it's not just being pulled from the air. So I loved doing that. 

And then one of the biggest projects I worked on was called Understanding Fifties and Over. And I was 30, and I had this sort of real bee in my bonnet that advertisers and agencies weren't really getting who the new generation of over fifties were. So I did a project, and the partners were PepsiCo, Saga, and the Daily Telegraph, and I spent two years mithering them, as we say in Manchester. 

And we did a huge piece of quant research, segmenting it, and we did the qual work, and it went on to win lots of awards, and then yesterday I reconnected with the head of insights from Saga back then. He's now at John Lewis, and we just had this lovely call, because now we are the over fifties. And it was like, "Which group are we sitting in? Obviously, the coolest group."

Ryan:

Totally. Oh, that's very funny. 

I think that's important, because we have to go to your point about your passion for direct marketing. We have to go beyond demography in marketing, because, okay, if someone is a 50 year old Caucasian female, there's two of them in the same room, they're still going to be very different, and their communities and their tribes are going to be different. And I don't know if you've ever seen any of that sort of tribe thinking, but I really associated with it, because we're different, even though our demographics are the same.

Jo:

I actually got my mum and dad into the media because of that, because my dad at the time had hit 50, and he had his midlife crisis and bought a Harley Davidson, which is like we lived in Manchester. He used to put me on the back of it and take me to the nightclubs in town, and I thought, "Well, he's not like these old people." And so when they came to do all the media interviews about the project, they used my dad, and he was like, "All these journalists are phoning me asking how I feel about being a rat race junkie. What the hell is that?" Because that was the segment.

Ryan:

Oh, that's very funny. I'm picturing you on the back of the Harley downtown Manchester on... Oh, that's very good.

Jo: 

My role just before I got to Zappi was in new business with agencies. So it was leading the big global pictures, and that can last a year, eight months to a year, where a really big global client wants to pick the agency. And my role was sort of making sure that we were putting the best response together, and working with all of the capabilities to go, "Okay, what can we do? How can we innovate for this pitch to make sure that we're taking something really new and different to the clients?" And I really love that, that it's all kind of come together now. I've come to Zappi, and it's bringing all that passion I had for the consumer, research, and discovery with “how can we put together the best subscription model for our clients, so that they can go and create amazing things that consumers love?”

Ryan:

Oh, I love it. All right. So before we talk about this topic, you also do really cool... Well, you've been doing really cool work in the public sector. Say a few words about that, because if you haven't gathered in the first few minutes of this conversation with Jo, she's got a lot of energy, and a lot of mental bandwidth, and not many people are running multimillion dollar media pitches and also working in public policy. So I have to allow you just to kind of share what got you into that, and what were some of the things you learned there? I mean, what a fascinating journey that must have been.

Jo:

Maybe coming from Manchester. It's quite a political city. Everyone has got an opinion on how things should be done, and you'll know this with our new head of product.

Ryan:

Yeah, Jody is definitely not short of opinions.

Jo:

Yeah. And we've always sort of believed in justice, and supporting those that needed us, I think, as a city. So I got into politics, and felt like everybody did back then. My passion back then was animal rights, ending vivisection, ending Fox hunting, which fortunately has happened. And then I would always support other people to be counselors. I've never been shy about knocking on doors and saying, "Hey, the election is in four weeks time. Have you thought about who you're going to vote for?" And having a conversation about their vote, and what are their issues. I actually love doing that, and I'd always done it for other people, moved to London, did the same thing, always helping colleagues to get elected.

And then I thought, "Well, hang on. Why don't I do it?" So I threw my hat in the ring, and I actually wrote a blog about it today. Getting selected as a labor counselor is quite grueling. We're labor. We love a process, and you have to be nominated. You have to go through a panel. You then have to be voted for by the members.

It was a lot of campaigning, and it was an amazing experience, as hard as it was, and my parents came down for the day, and they're not political at all. And they said, "We're going to come down, and we'll put some leaflets through the door. We're not knocking on doors." And within half an hour, my dad was hammering on doors going, "Are you going to vote for my daughter?"

Ryan:

That's amazing that he was your best campaigner.

Jo:

Yeah. So I got elected, and my passion has been to fix the air quality, and to make the roads safer. There's personal reasons and personal experience for wanting roads to be safer for everyone, but also in the course of my work, I meet people who have lost children through road collisions, who have lost loved ones, and I feel this it's an issue that it's almost so big that we've stopped thinking we can deal with it.

Ryan:

Yes. Sometimes that happens, right? We just accept this as a new norm.

Jo:

Well, you know what? "If we want to drive, people are going to die," is sometimes what I hear, and I'm part of a movement, Vision Zero movement, which is to go, "It's not okay. We should be able to drive without anybody dying." And that's a collective responsibility from the manufacturers to make cars that don't kill, for the people who design the roads to make roads that are safe, and for all of us road users to respect each other, and make sure we don't harm each other. So I'm very involved with a charity called RoadPeace, who are there to support people who've lost loved ones, and to try and get justice for people who were badly damaged as a result of road collisions.

So at the end of May, I'm cycling 100 miles to help raise money. So my passion for RoadPeace got me into hot water, let's say, in Wandsworth, because it's often seen as being very anti-car and anti-driving, and it can get people very defensive. The lead party put in these LTMs, which was to reduce traffic, and I was apparently the only counselor to support them. So I kind of got rained down on with all the anger. It wasn't even my idea, but so I'm not standing again, just because my kids are doing GCSEs and A-Levels. I've got this brilliant new job at Zappi, and it's a big career shift, and I kind of feel like I've given all of the heart that I have to public service, and I want somebody else to have that opportunity.

And I'm really thrilled, because a black woman got selected to stand in my seat, and I feel that that's like the end of the story, that I've created a space for diversity, which is something that is very difficult for us to do in any other part of our life. Right? So I feel satisfied about that.

Ryan:

Oh, that's amazing. Thank you for sharing, and congratulations on the backfill, and let's not understate how hard it is to be a woman in politics, let alone a black woman in politics, and so I'm rooting for your successor. 

So I want to stay on kind of you for a minute before we talk about creators. It strikes me you're very comfortable in your own skin. You're very comfortable being vulnerable, but also putting yourself out there. And a lot of folks want to be that way, but struggle to have the courage to do that. Obviously, the two of us are both pretty outgoing people, so it's easy for us to post on LinkedIn or what have you, but my hypothesis is you weren't always like that.

Jo:

Right.

Ryan:

And what I find about the way you represent yourself on the internet is it's unapologetically Jo, and that's one of the reasons why I'm such a fan of yours. So what advice would you give to somebody who's like, "I have things I want to say, but I'm worried my boss might not like it, or I might be judged," or all those imposter syndrome dynamics that people face, because we both face them too, but what is some advice that you have?

Jo:

Yeah. Well, I finally stopped living with fear, and it's a beautiful thing, because I feel like I've spent most of my life living with fear, and some degree of shame about who you are, and how people are going to perceive you, and that's socialized from an early age. It's gendered as well. It's class. There's a lot of it, but it has held me back, and it's made me probably not the best person at times, because if you heavily, heavily judge yourself, you tend to judge other people too, because you are just in this constant state of nothing being good enough. And as they say, I put a lot of work into that, but I think there's a couple of big things that happened.

The first is, as I became public enemy #1 on Twitter from the far right and the motoring lobby, I was rained down on with abuse, and it almost took me to the other side, that being judged so harshly was almost like the fear that I'd always had was happening. It happened. I had everything critiqued. I was seeing in Facebook groups locally, people were talking about my hair, about the way I dressed. It was like, "Ah!" It was horrible, and it was almost like seeing all of that did break me. It did cause a certain mental anguish, but I came out of it going, "I've lived through that. I've had all the judgements and people telling me I'm wrong, and I'm stupid, and I'm everything else, and I'm know I'm not." And it gave me this wall of steel.

And I don't want anyone to have to go through that to get to where I am, but I think you just have to know that within you you have this wall of steel. It's in all of us, and we shouldn't be scared of anything, and we shouldn't be scared of how people are going to respond. And it's so easy to say, but I think the other thing that's happened is I've got older, and you get to a point when you go, "Right. I've done half of it. I've only got the other half left, and I'm not living it like I did the first half."

Ryan:

True. Yeah. There's a degree of like, "All right, enough of this." But there's something... So I hope nobody has to go through what you went through, and I was really encouraged at the support. I was actually quite touched by that, that all the cards you got. I mean, it's really special.

Jo:

I got all those Christmas cards, yeah.

Ryan:

Yeah, it was really quite special, but there is something about it's a societal thing. We take on everybody else's projection of themselves onto us, and I think there's a degree of balancing really, really caring and not caring at the same time, at least for me. And you found it, right? You were in a position of spotlight, and it's easy for everybody to judge you. It's easy, right?

Jo:

Yeah.

Ryan: 

So I'll recommend a book I've just read. It's called The Courage to be Disliked, and it talks a lot about being at peace with who you are, and not worrying about what Tommy says or Jessica says, because that's their shit, right? That's them, and so don't let that be you, right? And so it's easy to say, hard to do, but I think both of us have found in our lives, the day we stopped thinking about what everybody else was going to think, the day we started to be happier. I could speak for that personally. I sleep really well at night, because I don’t really care what other people think. I’m respectful, but I don’t really care.

Jo:

I think in the past, when if you're a person who is so grounded in what everybody is thinking, when you're having a conversation with a client, you can't hear what they're asking you for, because you're so worried about what they're actually thinking of you. And it's an ego thing isn't it? And I think I finally dropped that and gone, "I'm just listening to you, and you may like me, you may not, but it doesn't really matter, because that's not your KPI."

Ryan:

Yeah, true. That's not the thing you're trying to do. Oh, I love that. 

Jo:

The other thing I have done, and this is a much easier thing for everyone to do is I started doing Pilates. I tried yoga, and yoga just wasn't really for me, but Pilates is I've kind of learned how to breathe again, which is expanding your ribs, taking in breath in a different way, and also the awareness of your body, and how you are. And that's really helped. I don't get choked up when I'm speaking. I don't get panicked, which would sometimes… You'd lose your confidence, right?

Ryan:

Yeah.

Jo:

So I do feel that on a practical level, knowing that your posture is correct, and you're letting all the breath in, it's helping to calm your mind, and know that you're in control, and you're in the moment, and you're present. So if yoga isn't for you, try Pilates.

Ryan:

Well, so for me, yoga bores me, but I've gotten into mindfulness, Which I mean, you... Nobody knows this, but before I hit record, Jo asked me how I was doing, and I said, "I'm quite grumpy about something, and I needed a minute to clear my head." I went outside and did a breathing exercise for two seconds, and all of a sudden I was centered again. I'm good, back to normal, and I think giving yourself... It used to be like these sort of things were taboo, but actually employing some of these techniques, it really helps.

Jo:

Yeah.

Ryan:

All right. So, Jo, let's change gears and talk about creators for a minute. You've worked on some of the biggest pitches that have happened in advertising in the last five years. What are some of the challenges that you see creative agencies going through? 

Their world has been disrupted on some level by the way media has been bought, to your point about personalization and advertising. We're not in the same world that Don Draper worked in. Right? So it's a very... For a lot of the right reasons, by the way. But what are some of the challenges that you see preventing the agency space from really creating beautiful campaigns that drive business results?

Jo:

Nobody works harder than those agencies when it's a pitch, and I still think about my colleagues as they're going through that. And these pitches now, they come around a lot quicker than they did. That used to be more of a long term relationship. They are coming around quicker, and they're getting longer, and they're getting more involved. And I was thinking about it today. What you have to live with when you're doing these pitches is uncertainty, because the feedback you get is good, but you never know really where you're sitting in the pack.

You never know if the team is working. You'll get feedback, "Somebody in the team isn't working," but is that the whole story? Is the idea enough? Do they like the insight? It's always the uncertainty. And that is quite disruptive to creativity and confidence.

Ryan:

Good point.

Jo:

Not knowing if what you're doing, and what you're spending 18 hours a day doing is going to be enough, and you always go to bed going, "Are we going to win the pitch?" And not like, "How are we going to win the pitch?" It's always the worry, and I feel that... Well, I believe that one of the ways that we can give some certainty in this very uncertain world is to know that the work that you're putting up in that room or on that Zoom call is going to be something that the consumer will of love, because you've tested it, and you've not just gone from gut feel, or the agency panel that's got friends of friends on it.

You absolutely know, and again, you have that steel belief in yourself and your work that it's not just good enough, it's brilliant. Because there will always be somebody in that pitch room who's a bit of a mischief maker, and doesn't want you to win that pitch, and having all of the data and the evidence that this work is the right thing for that client to do is so powerful.

Ryan:

So one of the things that I find head scratching is the pitch process itself. All this uncertainty, all this work by some of the smartest people. It almost strikes me that by the time they win the business, they're probably already tired, the poor people, and so there's something existential for me with that. You put your smartest people to win business. By the time you win it, you're tired. And then there's an interesting challenge I think with that in and of itself. Yeah. And obviously I agree with you on the data and helping act with confidence, but one of the tensions I've always felt with data and creatives is the way that it's implemented into their process.

So I've talked to so many chief strategy, chief creative officers in my life, and there's nothing worse for them than a report card. And I want to see a world where the data is more inspirational than checkbox exercising, and I think that that's a step change that a lot of the brands are going through, Jo, but for whatever reason, that hasn't made its way into how the brands work with agencies. And so I know one of the things you're really passionate about is changing that within the agency sector, like how can we actually get the creative's data while they create.

Jo:

Yeah. And see it as a mine of information in the same way that we get stuck into the industry data and say, "Well, what can we find from this?" The data that Zappi provides is just that, it's going, "Okay, this space over here in the ad needs a bit of work, but everyone is absolutely loving this part of it." And I've been here for three months, Ryan, and I've had lots of conversations with agencies about testing, and I've got a hypothesis already with this, that there's in the past, almost all the ads would be tested, because the creative process was incredibly robust. It was almost a revered process, and amazing work that we still talk about today was created.

Over time, the agencies have been hit by the need to cut services, because the clients have had to cut services, and the clients have looked to the agencies and said, "Look, we need to spend a bit less. How can you help us?" And it has to then trickle down, and unfortunately, I think it's trickled down into testing, because an advert is not a new drug. It doesn't have to be tested, right? It can go out there, and nothing really bad can happen. Well, the worst can happen is it just doesn't work and doesn't do anything, but it's as long as it's not going to insult anybody, it can go out there without a test.

And I'm speaking to creators who have protected that space, and made sure that it doesn't get pulled away, that it's seen as something that it's not there to be cut, because if you start cutting that, you're starting to cut certainty, and you're starting to cut efficacy, and that's the thing. Some of the top strategists and creative directors I've been speaking to are still completely passionate about evaluating the work, and testing, and learning the work, but they don't want the green light or the, "Yes. No," or the, "Go. No go." They want data.

Ryan:

Yeah. It's a lens, right? One of my favorite creators is Fernando Kahane, who is the head of marketing for Walkers Crisps, and he actually was on this podcast last season. And for him, he is just studying society, and the learning he gets from copy testing, idea testing, storyboard testing, is a signal, and he uses it to just make his ideas better. And it's not a, "Crap. What's my Ipsos ASI score eight weeks later?" It's like, "No, no, no. I want to do this as part of the process." And so it's linked to your hypothesis. I think some of this discipline is gone. I've seen, and this isn't a massive trend, but you've seen it too, where there's insourcing of the agency work.

So we have a few customers where they have an in-house agency, and seeing strategy, business, media, creative around a table, talking about what their customers and prospective customers think. What a wonderful prop to have a business conversation. And I've just had particularly in our early days when we were small, and I was doing everything, I remember just being in the room, like being the dude who put the data on the screen, and just sitting there quietly. And the leveling up of the discussion is exponential. And I don't know what you think about this, but this whole separation of church and state thing, I hear this a lot. I don't like that. I would rather the brands and the agencies sitting in a room together versus this, "Oh, gosh. We must be scared of client X,” because they don't want that. So I'm hoping that the consumer can unite these silos versus making it what it used to be.

Jo:

Yeah. And it's not about marking your own homework either, right? If you've got data that's coming from a platform that everyone has access to, nothing can be tampered with, it's there, and again, we go back to fear. It's not something to be feared. It's something to embrace and help us to grow. And the agencies who have good relationships with their clients are able to do that, and I believe that it can help bridge a lot of the gaps with relationships that aren't so good, because you're actually going, "Look, we might not have got it right, but we're going to get it right together, and we're going to bring some data in to help us to discuss and get it to a good place."

I was thinking about what is ad testing like? And I'm also a huge music fan. I love going to gigs, and I love seeing new bands that haven't had all the hype yet, and I really miss that in lockdown. And you think about how a band gets signed. The music company... I was going to say the record company, because that's how old I am. The music-

Ryan:

I would still call it a record company.

Jo:

Yeah. The music company won't sign a band. It's very, very unusual for them to sign a band without having gone to one of their gigs, and the reason they're at their gig is because they want to see that band perform, but they're also looking around at what the audience is doing.

Ryan:

Totally.

Jo:

And they're thinking, "If this is the reaction, this is like a quant survey, right? There's 300 people in this church hall, and they're loving what they're hearing, so we know that that can scale up." And the band aren't going to go, "No, no, no. We don't want to be judged by the audience." They're like, "No, bring on the audience."

Ryan:

Bring on The audience.

Jo:

Yeah. 

Ryan:

In fact, they get energy from it.

Jo:

It's like a standup comedian, the same thing. It didn't work last week. I'm going to tweak the joke. I'm not going to kill the joke. Some jokes should be killed. Jimmy Carr’s jokes should be killed, but good comedians will take the energy from the audience, and the feedback, and they'll shape their work. And they'll go to very small pubs, even the really big ones, and they'll test out new work, and they'll test it and test it till it goes out into the big universe. And that is what we are going to go back to with advertising. We're going to treat it like that piece of art.

Ryan:

I sense with the creative process there's highly opinionated chief creatives, CMOs, and a lot of times we can't put that in front of this person, because they won't like it, or this is going to be a really good idea, and maybe we'll win a Cannes Award, but maybe we'll lose market share afterwards. And there's an ultimate tiebreaker, which I've been saying this since we started Zappi. We're in a time where the customer is our boss. We all must recognize that, and so the from/to of technology is we don't have to mean copy testing stops the creative process. It's a part of the process, right?

Jo:

Yeah.

Ryan:

So I'm really excited that you're here, but also with the bridge that you're going to make in the community. So with your community mind, how do we really get creators learning together, sharing best practices, ultimately creating things that are going to change the world? Because that's the future. The creators are the future, and I'm so excited to work with you to sort of step change this.

Jo:

Yeah. I mean, one of the things that's going to be coming is we're going to be doing a Zappi webinar to help agencies sort of reconnect with ways of testing, and share some of the new innovations, and how you can test work, and people can come along, and it's free, and they can just hear from some of the brilliant minds at Zappi, look at some of our case work, and just ask questions about testing. Again, let's start building a community of people who are curious about testing, but maybe have a bit of a fear, or it's going to be really expensive. It's going to end my career. We're just going to normalize this kind of data again.

Ryan:

I can't wait for that webinar. Jo, thank you for your time. Everybody who's listening, Jo Rigby, follow her on LinkedIn, will not regret it, and keep an eye out for all of Jo's updates as she's step changing the way the creators learn in the world, and stay tuned for the next episode. Jo, thank you so much.

Jo:

Thanks a lot, Ryan. Bye bye.

Ryan:

You know, that was a fun interview. I didn't expect it to take those turns, but I learned a lot about Jo and I think I want my daughter to listen to this interview, frankly.

Patricia:

Oh God, yes.

Ryan:

Jo is such a strong woman and somebody I'm really proud to know. But as always, Patricia, I do a lot of chatting and I always like to recap it. What did we talk about today? What were your takeaways?

Patricia:

We learned so much. I mean, as you said, we didn't only learn about advertising and media agency engagement, which is what we were expecting to do. We got so much bonus content. So I'm going to start off with Jo's career learning because as similar to you, I have two daughters, you have one. I want my daughters to hear this because she's just so fricking strong and I, being a woman, as well, in case you hadn't noticed. I learned so much from her. So let's start with her career learning. She has had a really cool career, but what she extracted from it.

So she started as a librarian. So as a librarian, she learned about the foundation, what she says, everything. Which is knowledge management, connecting with people and making them happy. And if you think about that, that can apply to just about anything. So I'd never thought about being a librarian, but she made me think twice. Then she went to direct marketing and she learned to identify target audiences and bring them to life using data and storytelling to make a credible case. I mean, again, two things that are so basic and she learned it in direct marketing and then she was able to apply it everywhere. Target audience, bringing it to life, storytelling, love it. Then she went on… before us, way before us, to do like one of the first online surveys ever, 24 hour turnaround. And what did she learn there? Agility before it was a buzzword, before it was cool. She was cool before it was cool. So, that's how cool she is.

Ryan:

Those were pretty cool.

Patricia:

Yeah. I was like, unbelievable, 24 hour turnaround time, damn. And she started pitching new businesses with agencies and she learned something different. She learned how to innovate the pitch to something new and differentiating. I've done many pitches with creative agencies and we spent most of the time answering the question, but we didn't spend enough time in the storytelling, which is what she learned before. And how to make the pitch engaging, how to make the pitch different.

Just like a product on the shelf, if you're going to pitch… When I was at Coke, we had five agencies pitch, always. If you've got five agencies pitching to somebody like Coke, you're going to want to make sure you stand out. And that's what she learned when she was doing that. And then she put it all together for me in a beautiful bow. In sum, she learned the passion for putting together the best option for customers so they can create amazing things that consumers will love. She made that one easy for me, she tied it up into a bow, I just had to put it down. It was great. 

Ryan:

Boom.

Patricia:

So those are her career learnings. Boom, yeah. But was it, booya? I love that one. Anyway.

Ryan:

I like to be like a booyakasha,boy. I think that's from, is that Ali G show. Do you guys remember that show? Ali G show.

Patricia:

I'm afraid not, but I like how it sounded.

Ryan:

Sasha Baron Cohen is the guy. He was also Borat if you remember that ridiculous film. But Ali G is this persona of this kind of Rasta-English guy who interviews people on a couch and his whole thing when people talk “booyakasha, boy.” It's kind of funny.

Patricia:

I'm going to have to work on that one. Booyakasha, boy.

Ryan:

You should Google that shit. It's funny.

Patricia:

I will, I will, but I have to practice the saying of it so it just kind of rolls off my tongue.

Ryan:

Yeah, you need a little more fluidity, Patricia, in your booyakasha.

Patricia:

I will work on fluidity. Maybe I need a glass of wine for that.

Ryan:

I heard it helps.

Patricia:

So now, I'm sure it does. It helps me with most about everything. Now, next chapter in our key takeaways today is all of the advertising. You asked her a very interesting question and I thought to myself, when you asked it, I'm glad he didn't ask me because it would've taken me longer to think about them, but she just kind of got it. Advertising agency challenges, right? That creative agencies are going through that prevent them from creating beautiful campaigns that drive results. It was a mouthful of a question and she just took it on like nothing. And she gave us four amazing ones.

One, the client agency relationships used to be long term, very solid, very deep, very involved. Now the relationship have gotten faster, quick turnaround, more time between times because people have been, not all the time advertising, but still incredibly involved. So it's hard to do all of that at the same time. Now she talked about feedback being given to the agencies, but piecemeal disrupting creativity and confidence because the agency doesn't really know, am I doing well? Am I not doing well? Because they're only getting nuggets, right? Because they don't have that long term solid relationship. It's more like lots of one night stands or one date versus a long relationship. Right? Then she talked about the teams worrying about not winning the pitch instead of before, when they worried about how do we win the pitch? She said, that's really subtle and nuanced, but it makes a world of difference in the creative juices flowing. If you think about it, that was brilliant. Right?

Now, number two, testing in the past was seen as a scorecard. Go,no-go, green light, red light. And it was done when the product was finished, when it was ready to launch, right? And this will was a one dimensional source of stress. It was just a go, no-go green, red, yellow. And it was just stressful waiting six weeks to get the results. Do I pass or do I not pass? So, that was the way, that's something that thwarts the creation of beautiful campaigns.

Number three, the creative process used to be robust and revered as a process. It was something people… I remember going into the creative agencies and there was a multi floor building. The creative wing was a special place and you had to have a special invitation and you went in there and it was another world. It was colorful and everybody had their own personality showing. Now, because companies need to spend less and have less time and less money, then the agencies need to find areas to cut. And what's being cut is the testing, right?

As per the previous number two, that I gave you. And so the whole entire creative process that used to be revered is faster, faster, I need it now. Right? So the advertising, the advertising or the campaigns, or the adverts are all launched without testing as long as they're deemed safe. Bunny ears, right there. Because safe means not insulting to anybody because people are more creative about that. That's really scary because I know for a fact, and you as well, guys, that this is not a fail proof process. Nowadays, I put my foot in my mouth without meaning to all the time. And I have to apologize because sensibilities have changed. We've all become much more conscious and you have to be really careful what you say and who you might insult. So efficacy is limited because things take long and certainty is limited because they don't have any testing to tell them how they're doing along the way.

Now, the fourth one was interesting. It's not a huge tendency yet, but it is a challenge because some companies are insourcing. Now insourcing, like having an in-house creative agency, this is neither good, nor bad. Cause it's a good agency, that's fantastic. But the good part, that's universally good, is that strategy, business and media creators are all sitting around the same table talking about what their customers and prospective customers think and want. So this, if it continues, is going to help turn things around right now, it's very, very sporadic when you see that. But this discussion they're having around this table is leveling up everything. So, that's kind of what she's seeing about things being, forwarding the creative process a little bit, those four. 

You then said, okay, those are the problems. What's the solution you said, right? You said it much nicer. You said, how do you really get-

Ryan:

What's the solution? Is that how I sounded?

Patricia:

No, you have to say that. I wrote, I said that now, but you said, "how do we really get creators learning together, sharing best practices and ultimately creating things that are going to change the world?" Verbatim, your words. Very elegant, you speak Mr. Ryan Barry. So she turned around and said, no problem. Let me give you four answers to that. Number one, testing, not in any order of preference, but testing data needs to be seen as a tool to help creation, not feared as a destructor of creativity. Pause. Drop the damn mic.

Ryan:

Are you going to practice your booyakasha now? Cause that's a good one time to do it.

Patricia:

Booyakasha, damn.

Ryan:

Well, I like it. Little Patricia flavor.

Patricia:

I mean, little Latina thing. But I mean, think about it. Not feared as a destructor...I love that one. Right? And she says that this is regardless of where the creative agency sits, internal, external wherever, but she's like copy testing with the consumers part should be part of the process, a live audience. This is where you guys were talking about comedians and musicians. I love that. A live audience of consumers tells you what you're doing. Just like musicians know if their song is any good if people sing along. Right? And if they laugh at the joke, that was a good joke. If they don't, you might want to work on that one. Right? And data, consumer data, is a mine of information. This can be qual, quant, whatever, but a mine of information and inspiration to the creatives while they create not when they're done. One and done, all right?

Number two, return certainty and confidence to the creative pitch. I separated number one and number two, why? Because although they're part of the same, the data, I wanted to pull it apart because having facts that show the consumer's reaction to the creative is going to give the creatives feedback as they need to polish. So that when the person that's pitching to the customer at the end can stand up there and say, I know that my pitch is fricking brilliant. I have proof. It's not just my gut. It's not just my feeling. And that changes the conversation. If we go back to what she said earlier about worrying about how to win the pitch, not, not winning the pitch. So, it was like she tied it together so nicely.

And then she said, we have to normalize testing and data, not be afraid of it. We have to build a community of people who are curious about testing. And if anybody's afraid, talk to somebody else who's done it. Get the questions out there. Don't be afraid of asking the question. Don't be afraid of saying, what happens if I fail? Well, you fix it. You tweak it. Right? And it's all about how, when, with whom, what consumer, when. So all those things need to be normalized. And then she wrapped it all beautifully and said, we're doing a sappy webinar. Right? Just making sure that we are not only-

Ryan:

Shameless plug by Jo. I actually really liked it.

Patricia:

Absolutely. Yes. She is badass, in general. Right? And she just slipped that in there and said, all these things I said, we should do, we're going to start doing them together. But you have to do it together with us. We're calling together a group of people because there's not… Zappi, itself, she was very clear to say, is not going to do anything alone. They're going to provide a forum, so the agencies can reconnect and start testing. Consumers can reconnect and ask questions. They can share experiences, good, bad, and ugly. Right? Explain testing innovations and how to use them to the advantage of the creative. Maybe even creatives can work on that. So that way she can, as you said when we started, step change the way creators learn in the world. Booya.

Ryan:

Nice. I like that booya. That was a natural booya. I like that one.

Patricia:

Yeah. I think that last piece of a booya that you say, that doesn't come out of my mouth. So I'm thinking I'm just going to drop that one. Just-

Ryan:

I think you just dropped that one. Just like Jo, you got to be unapologetically yourself, Patricia.

Patricia:

You know, at my age, one of the things she said, by the way, pause, open parentheses. Last season, last episode I gave you bonus content and you were all excited about that. I thought-

Ryan:

I like bonus content.

Patricia:

Let's give them what they want. I'm going to do my very best to give you a little bit of bonus content, really hard hitting at every single episode. That's my commitment for season four.

Ryan:

It's a little new thing from you. A little innovation.

Patricia:

Yeah. Some whipped cream, maybe some sprinkles. Now ready for the bonus content-

Ryan:

That's going to get weird, but I'm excited.

Patricia:

That goes perfectly with...Well, there's ice cream always when there's happiness in my world, excuse me. And if you have ice cream, that's good. With sprinkles and whipped cream, that's better. Right, Kelsey?

Ryan:

Kelsey's what are y'all talking about? For those of our listeners who don't know Kelsey and I are both Rhode Island natives. So this is a good time to ask, what Rhode Island ice cream establishment is your favorite, Kelsey? There is the right answer here.

Kelsey:

Sundaes.

Ryan:

Oh, I was thinking Newport Creamery, but-

Kelsey:

Oh yeah, I guess. I was thinking really local, like the one location.

Ryan:

Yep. Anybody who's listening who's from Rhode Island, you're most likely related to either Kelsey or I, so see you at Christmas. Anyways, Patricia, let's get back to the content. I'm very-

Patricia:

My Colombian favorite ice cream's called Ventolini, just in case anybody's in Cali, Ventolini, that's what it's called. It's got not just really good food, and crepes and desserts, but it's got the best ice cream. Just saying. Moving right along.

Ryan:

Got to make it happen.

Patricia:

I've invited you all many times. Doors waiting. Rooms ready. Bonus content. Right? What we were saying, advice to others on how to be unapologetically themselves and to how to beat imposter syndrome dynamics. I love this because if anybody says to you that they've never felt imposter syndrome, I'm thinking they might have been lying because all of us have felt it at one point

Ryan:

They’re lying. 100 percent. They’re lying.

Patricia:

Exactly. I mean, that's how you push yourself beyond your boundaries. Now I've always said to both of you, my comfort zone is being outside of my comfort zone, so I'm always feeling this because every time I learn it's time to go somewhere else. It's time to learn something new. So she starts with now six, these are six tips.

Number one, learn from survivors who have had to live their fears in real life. That story she told, broke my heart, just broke my heart. But then when she talked about that steel wall, made me just want to stand firm or stand taller because she said that we all have that steel wall inside of us to protect us. And I thought I got that, it's there, I'm protected. Right? And she said that she doesn't want anybody to have to go through that. But she lived through it and she knows that she can live through it. Right? She knows that we don't have to be scared of how people respond to you, because you know that old adage “sticks and stones may break my bones but words…” She said that in a much more elegant way, but I remember, I think I was bullied in middle school. Many people were, and it was hurtful. I mean, nobody was throwing sticks and stones at me, but they were saying some nasty things. So you just have to protect yourself. You have to remember, you have that steel wall. It's harder in middle school, but as an adult, I love it.

Now this one was the one that came straight to me. Number two, we are adults and have already lived the first half of our lives with this fear. Don't live the second half of your life the way you live the first. Live it better. Oh man, Jo, I'm going to have to pay you for that one. You just saved me a couple of hours of therapy for that, just for that. I loved it. It's like why, right? You always say this, make different mistakes. I’m in, totally different mistakes.

Number three is hard. Balance between caring and not caring, I think is not giving a fuck, but she said caring. So I'm going to stick with that, right? About what others think and say. I think it's important. And she said something really business oriented. If you stop thinking of what other people think and clear your brain, only then can you listen properly to what the customer actually needs. Loosen your brain, clear it up. I never thought of it that way. I'd never thought of it. I mean you would talk a lot about Mindfulness by Orion about going out and breathing right before that interview. I mean, if we're mindful and we're clear our brain and we just listen to what the customer's saying, we can't be thinking about how we're going to offend them or something, so it's good. Then, breathing properly. She uses Pilates. You use Mindfulness. Other people use yoga or meditation. Doesn't matter what you use, but she broke it down to the core. Learn to breathe or improve your breathing so that you can breathe properly and mindfully. Fill your lungs, fill your stomach because this is going to give you added confidence. How? It helps you control your breath and your speaking, and eventually eliminates the moments of panic when speaking. Because many people have public speaking panic and this helps a lot.

And then the last one was yours. You gave a reco, right? You said The Courage to be Disliked and I already bought it. I got it. It's waiting. It's on the list, because it's about being at peace with who you are and I really like that, so I wanted to finish with that one.

Ryan:

It's an interesting book, by the way.

Patricia:

Yeah.

Ryan:

The whole book is written from the prose of a conversation between a philosopher and a young person challenging all these assumptions. And so much of the takeaway is we project the reality and then will it to be there versus actually make our own way. Just kind of interesting, but I feel more happy to-

Patricia:

I truly believe in that.

Ryan:

Yeah, exactly.

Patricia:

I truly believe in that. I mean, I believe you. I don't know if you guys ever did it, but when you draw a picture of what you want and what you project and you have it in front of you the whole time. I truly believe in that. I mean, I drew a picture of many things in my life and then I forgot about it and then I brought it up. And when I was moving from one place to the other, I would find the picture and say, oh my God, I actually willed this to reality. Love it.

Ryan:

It's a beautiful thing. I hope everybody enjoyed Jo's episode as much as we did. Our next episode's going to be really cool. Our next episode is with Udi Ledergor who is the CMO at Gong. They're the fastest growing, most well-funded software company on the planet. They happen to be my favorite software product that we buy and at Zappi we buy a bunch of software. I love Gong. You're not going to be surprised to hear this, because I get to listen to my customers. Novel concept! It's a beautiful thing.

But Gong has done a wonderful job in a B2B space, that is littered with buzzwords and AI, of creating a distinctive brand. I have a lot of respect for brand builders, but the cool part about this interview is Gong ran Super Bowl ads, which is not something small to mid-size growing businesses do. And our conversation is going to be about how Udi balanced a big creative territory and listening to his customers to have great success on the Super Bowl. Very excited about the conversation. Udi's one of my favorite marketers on the planet. And so I think we're going to learn a lot from him, but I will save that for next time.

Have a great day, ladies. Have a great weekend. Kelsey have a great long weekend. And if you are so compelled, just go to Newport Creamery and get an Awful Awful. It's fine, it's not a big deal.

Patricia:

It's good. I'll go to Ventolini.

Ryan:

There you go. Keep in mind folks, give us a rating. Five stars only. That way your friends can find us. And we are now on YouTube and I promise we won't make it so YouTube for those of you all on your Air Pods, you won't be able to follow along. But for those of you on YouTube, you can give some love to Tom Brady behind me. Those are all of the Patriots winning Super Bowl Sports Illustrated. The young man is just retired, so I would be remiss to not call him out on our podcast that he'll never listen to. But anyways, have a wonderful day everybody and we'll talk to you soon.

Patricia:

You too. Bye. Bye.

Ryan:

Bye!